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  1. #1
    Member Willance's Avatar
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    MC and Cover. Nids.

    So i had an interesting situation with on of my usual gaming partners.

    I had a walking hive tyrant with Tyrant guard behind some spineguants. He shot at it with a squad of Lascannons. After wounding with two he though that was that. I said that i got a cover save from the guants. He disagreed as my Hive Tyrant a MC was no 50% obscured by the squad. I countered that my Tyrand Guard were.

    This is were the debate goes to you guys. I've been playing nids for a while but am not sure if i was right with 5th ed. I think that the shield rule applyed here and he can't pick out my MC like that. He says he can as i 5th ed it specified about the MC needing to me 50% obscured. What do you think?

    Army's used: Space Wolves, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar.

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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willance View Post
    So i had an interesting situation with on of my usual gaming partners.

    I had a walking hive tyrant with Tyrant guard behind some spineguants. He shot at it with a squad of Lascannons. After wounding with two he though that was that. I said that i got a cover save from the guants. He disagreed as my Hive Tyrant a MC was no 50% obscured by the squad. I countered that my Tyrand Guard were.

    This is were the debate goes to you guys. I've been playing nids for a while but am not sure if i was right with 5th ed. I think that the shield rule applyed here and he can't pick out my MC like that. He says he can as i 5th ed it specified about the MC needing to me 50% obscured. What do you think?
    The Codex ruling of ‘the unit still deploys as a Monstrous Creature,’ (page 36) combined with the cover rule for MC’s of 50% LOS blocked means that you must decide if indeed half of the combined Tyrant and Guard were blocked by the Gaunts and I highly doubt that it was possible due the Gaunts being much smaller in size.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    You definitely wouldn't get a cover save... however if you were asking about whether or not he can pick out the hive tyrant and not shoot at the tyrant guard, then you are correct, you could assign those wounds to your tyrant guard.

  5. #4
    Senior Member SMann233's Avatar
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    Post removed because the argument was wrong. (Points made were technically correct, but I forgot something important when it comes to cover saves.)
    Last edited by SMann233; April 8th, 2009 at 13:58.

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    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMann233 View Post
    Thus, you may allocate the wound from the Las Cannon to a Guard and it will recieve a cover save. If you allocate the wound to the Tyrant itself, you will not receive a cover save from the gaunts.
    Ok, so if the entire UNIT deploys as a Monstrous Creature and uses all those rules required for that, then how do you determine that any cover save applies to them other than the 50% blocked line of sight rule?

    Sure wound allocation can be spread around at will but the entire unit is and always be a Monstrous Creature, including the Guard.

    No?
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Senior Member SMann233's Avatar
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    Ok, upon rereading the cover saves section, I realized this has nothing to do with Wound Allocation like I thought it did before.

    When you join a Hive Tyrant to a Tyrant Guard unit, so long as the Guard are alive, it forms an actual unit to which the Tyrant is an Upgrade Character. This means that for all purposes, it moves and acts like a unit. This includes determining cover saves.

    Now, cover saves for units are very specific in how they operate. (BRB, P.22) "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves." "If less than half of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit counts as exposed and none of its models may take cover saves."

    Now, I don't have the 'nid 'dex atm, so double check if the Guard models are MCs. I don't believe they are, but I could very easily be wrong on this.

    If the Tyrant Guard models are not MCs, the following is true: If the unit shooting at the Tyrant & Guard are shooting over *ANY* models/terrain in the way cover saves are normally determined, then the Tyrant and Guard will receive a cover save. This is because the Guard follow normal infantry rules for cover saves; and because at least 50% of them are considered to be "in cover", the whole unit is in cover.

    If the Tyrant Guard models ARE MCs: Determine if each individual model is in cover from the firing squad. If 50% or more have 50% of their model covered by intervening models/terrain, then the entire squad will receive cover saves. If not, then no model in the unit will.

    Simply put, the fact that the Tyrant is an MC has no bearing on this discussion. Cover saves for units are determined by units as a whole, not by the individual model. The fact that the Tyrant is a MC is only used for determining if the model itself should receive cover, which is only used to determine if 50% of the unit is in cover. Same is true if the Guard models are MCs.

    The question you need to answer when determining cover saves is simply "Are 50% of the models in this squad considered to be in cover?", using the appropriate rules for each model.

    Further, the Shieldwall rule has no bearing on this discussion either - your Tyrant has formed a unit with his Guard, which may or may not get a cover save. Wounds may be allocated to them as if it were any other unit in the game. Shieldwall is a relic rule from 4th that attended to model size and target priority. 5th's Wound allocation rules are all you need to take care of that argument that your opponent was making. (It should be noted that because of the way Shieldwall is worded, models that can pick out individual models in a squad, such as Telion, or a Mind War, etc., can still target the Hive Tyrant specifically. Simply put, the rule wasn't generic enough to stop that from happening. )
    Last edited by SMann233; April 8th, 2009 at 14:24.

  8. #7
    Senior Member WinnipegDragon's Avatar
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    Tyrant Guard are not MCs.

    As long as you have at least one Tyrant Guard and it is in cover, the Tyrant gets the cover save as 50% of the unit is in cover.

  9. #8
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMann233 View Post
    When you join a Hive Tyrant to a Tyrant Guard unit, so long as the Guard are alive, it forms an actual unit to which the Tyrant is an Upgrade Character. This means that for all purposes, it moves and acts like a unit. This includes determining cover saves.

    Now, cover saves for units are very specific in how they operate. (BRB, P.22) "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of its models may take cover saves." "If less than half of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit counts as exposed and none of its models may take cover saves."

    Now, I don't have the 'nid 'dex atm, so double check if the Guard models are MCs. I don't believe they are, but I could very easily be wrong on this.

    If the Tyrant Guard models are not MCs, the following is true: If the unit shooting at the Tyrant & Guard are shooting over *ANY* models/terrain in the way cover saves are normally determined, then the Tyrant and Guard will receive a cover save. This is because the Guard follow normal infantry rules for cover saves; and because at least 50% of them are considered to be "in cover", the whole unit is in cover.
    You are correct - the tyrant guard are not MC's, and so as long as at least one tyrant guard model has cover (any part of the tyrant guard is obscured), then the unit gets a cover save because 50% or more of the unit is in cover. The Hive Tyrant being a MC has no bearing on this until all the tyrant guard are dead in which case you use the MC cover rules as normal.

    Edit: WD beat me to it! And I type so quickly!
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  10. #9
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnipegDragon View Post
    Tyrant Guard are not MCs.

    As long as you have at least one Tyrant Guard and it is in cover, the Tyrant gets the cover save as 50% of the unit is in cover.
    What if you have three Tyrant Guard's and only one is in cover...?

    Just sayin', Specificity!

  11. #10
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InquisitorAffe View Post
    What if you have three Tyrant Guard's and only one is in cover...?

    Just sayin', Specificity!
    Of course in that case the unit would not get a cover save.

    -Thread Killer Bryan
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