"Weaken Resolve" Floating or Static - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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View Poll Results: Floating or Static

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  • Floating

    9 75.00%
  • Static

    3 25.00%
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  1. #1
    Airborne Mastershake's Avatar
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    479 (x8)

    "Weaken Resolve" Floating or Static

    I'll preface this by saying I'm not sure if there is a conclusive resolution to be had, but I thought it would be interesting regardless.

    The Imperial Guard Weaken Resolve Psychic Power (for those not familiar):

    Pg. 47 IG Codex
    This power is used during the Psyker Battle Squad's Shooting phase. Choose one enemy unit within 36" and line of sight of the Psyker Battle Squad. For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit tilising the power (to a minimum of 2)
    The question for discussion: Is this effect...

    A. A Floating effect applied to any leadership rating the squad uses for the remainder of the turn making borrowing leadership ratings from other models or special abilites useless.

    or

    B. A Static effect applied only to the leadership values of the models in the affected squad allowing them to ignore the effect through leadership-based special abilities.


    There are several abilities in the game that allow models to use a leadership rating that is not their natural rating. The most notable is the Ork Mob Rule allowing Orks to Substitute their unit size for their leadership, but there is also the Space Marine Rites of Battle ability used by Sicarius and some of the older Marine Chapter books and even the IG commisars own Aura of Discipline.

    So what do you think and why?

    Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009

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  3. #2
    Senior Member MC Bone Giant's Avatar
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    53 (x1)

    I would say you use the leadership (i.e. Ork Mob Rule) and then you modify it with the value. The leadership-based special ability gives the unit their Ld value, and then that gets modified.
    You can think of it as some Smurf Marines knowing Sicarus is in the battle, but then the psykers start filling their heads with thoughts that he's fallen or is running away or something. That will weaken their resolve some.

  4. #3
    ....coookies... GDMNW's Avatar
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    288 (x6)

    Hmm

    Hmm,

    I have to agree with the last post.

    I think that the power is intended to have an impact on the squad it is cast on. I can't think of any other instances where units are simply able to ignore the effects of weapons or powers because of special rules or abilities.

    I don't include special abilities or rules which specifcally negate certain effects within that group. For example Chimeras can carry more than ten individuals. But the 'bulky' special rule, specifically negates this and halves the transport capacity of the vehicle for Ogryns.

    I think weaken resolve will affect the LD ised by the target squad no matter the source.



  5. #4
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    Your definitions of static and floating are a little confusing. Please give examples of each.

    Regarding Weaken Resolve, as it doesn't say to use the target unit's "natural, unmodified" leadership, I would say you use its current leadership score. Thus a mob of 30 ork boyz would be LD 10 and fearless before modifying their LD. Marines under Rites of Battle would use LD 10. And a unit with a Chaplain would also be LD 10 and fearless.

    So a Chaplain + unit hit by 8 psykers would have LD 2 but still be fearless with regards to Morale/Pinning. However, they would get roasted alive by the Callidus' Neural Shredder.

  6. #5
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    381 (x8)

    Rites of Battle would override Weaken Resolve. The squad's LD stat is reduced to two or whatever, oh well, they're using the commander's. His is still a 9 or 10! It's a stat modifier on the target unit, not a penalty applied to the tests.

  7. #6
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    I would go with the same premise. Example: Shadowsun allows units within a certain distance of her Command Drone to use her leadership value. Those units "replace" their normal value with hers, so any modification due to the Sanctioned Psykers would be raised against the current leadership value of the Tau unit, which in this case would be Shadowsun's.

    E.
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  8. #7
    Airborne Mastershake's Avatar
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    479 (x8)

    I tend to agree more with InquisitorAffe.

    I think that the power is intended to have an impact on the squad it is cast on. I can't think of any other instances where units are simply able to ignore the effects of weapons or powers because of special rules or abilities.
    How bout Force Weapons or anything else that causes instant death and Eternal Warrior? This arguement doesn't make an abundance of sense to me because, purely by definition, special rules are rules outside of the standard set that allow you to do things you normally couldn't or wouldn't.

    The leadership-based special ability gives the unit their Ld value, and then that gets modified.
    Actually, none of the special rules that I can find "give" the unit the leadership value. In the case of Rites of Battle, they simply use Sicarius' for checks, the unit never actually posesses the value itself. Goes the same for the mob rule. The Orks "substitute" the number of models for their leadership at any point in time, but the unit itself never actually has the leadership rating.

    Your definitions of static and floating are a little confusing. Please give examples of each.
    Floating- Applies to any leadership values used by the squad for checks

    Static- Applies only to the squads natural ld ratings.


    GW really could've made this more clear by saying either:

    the enemy unit's Leadership Value is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit tilising the power (to a minimum of 2)
    Or

    the enemy unit's Leadership Tests are reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit tilising the power (to a minimum of 2)
    The simple addition of one word could have easily settled any debate on the matter.
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  9. #8
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    I think value is always implied after LD, but for simplicity, why do they want to state the obvious.

    Examples
    Leadership
    Leadership value
    Leadership rating
    Leadership quantity
    Leadership number

    Basically, they are all synonomous as they all refer to the unit's leadership. However, this doesn't take into account whether it is modified or not. It just shows the end result/number.

    What would make a difference is if they were to use 'natural' or 'unmodified' leadership. IMO it would make more sense and be simpler to use whatever LD value they are currently using and modify that.

    So Sicarius gives his Marines LD 10. For that turn, all tests they take is based on 10, not their 'natural' LD of 8 or 9. So for all intents and purposes, they are LD 10 (though it's not the natural LD) until Sicarius is killed off.

  10. #9
    Airborne Mastershake's Avatar
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    479 (x8)

    Again this is really where I have to disagree.

    Pg. 85 Marine dex
    Rites of Battle: If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marines units can use his Leadership for any morale or Pinning tests
    The Squad in question that has suffered Weaken Resolve is not using any Leadership Value associated with the affected unit. I'm not seeing how this psychic power, from a rules standpoint, is modifying the leadership of an unaffected character.

    I think value is always implied after LD, but for simplicity, why do they want to state the obvious.
    Leadership Value is what is in the model's statline, as opposed to whatever rating the unit may be using for tests.
    Blais's Paint Studio-Getting broken armies good soft scores since 2009

  11. #10
    Fun guy from Yuggoth Moglun's Avatar
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    235 (x4)

    I'm definitely coming down on the 'static' side. Weaken Resolve lowers the unit's leadership - if they're using a value other than their own leadership for any tests, such as by substituting the number of models instead of their actual leadership score, then they would get around it. WR affects 'Leadership', not 'Leadership Tests'.
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