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Our group is still rather confused regarding the Issuing of Orders from the Officer.
It states he has to declare which order, and then "select a single friendly non-vehicle unit within his command radius to carry out the order."
Does the IG commander get to measure his command radius first, in order to determine if its possible to give a command to a unit X inches away?
Or does he pick a unit, verify its range, then test to issue to order? If the unit is out of range his order automatically fails.
It feels like a shooting attack essentially, with a leadership test.
I'm referencing (page 29 Issuing Orders; IG Codex)
Orders aren't weapons. They may be used in the shooting phase, but they have no stat line or weapon type and can be used in addition to firing an actual weapon. It's similar to running, it may occur in the shooting phase but it's not the same as firing a gun. The "declare then measure" rule is a restriction specific to firing a weapon; it doesn't apply to a non-shooting action like issuing orders. It's the same way non-shooting psychic powers can measure to determine if they have range to a target.
Selecting a unit outside his range is illegal, therefore, rewind and try again. Selecting a shooting target outside your range is completely allowed and has clearly specified results. In this case, you're just not allowed to do it, it "can't happen" within the rules.
Here's the thing:
1) You can pre-measure your movement in the movement phase.
2) You cannot pre-measure your shooting nor assault range.
The difference is that in #2, the rules explicity say that you cannot do those things. Seems like the norm is that you can do it unless the rules say otherwise. Because it doesn't say that you have to pick a unit before checking whether they are in range, I'd have to say that you can measure which unit is within range and then issue the order.
I would say liek eveyrone else check range then issue. Thats what i have and everyone else i seen has been doing anyway!
"Should take you a while though because of your sloth like pace"
Click here and watch Gedderz try and cross the road
I see your point, but this makes think of the "The rules don't say I can't do it" This action does take place in the beginning of the shooting phase, and doesn't list that the Command radius can be pre-measured. In any event, I do agree with everyone's rationale that it doesn't fail so to speak. Just trying to find (if anywhere) this idea is explained.
Although, in this case the order of steps is still important, determining order (Move, Move, Move), then selecting a unit, finding its out of reach and stuck in the open, even selecting a new unit within range, the commander has already declared which order, and thats the one that gets sent.
This example, is specifically why we think that if you select a unit outside the range, it just gets lost in the vox system. ( I know logic insertion ) We think that issuing the forward unit to Move Move Move, then realizing they can't hear you, issuing Move Move Move, to a nearby unit just because didn't make any sense. We understand that you can just then choose not to issue any order at all. Which circles us back to #2 from above.
I'm not trying to complicate something this simple, it just seems that they were an after thought, and squeezed in.
Nothing personal, but you really do seem to be over-complicating it-- you're projecting the restrictions on firing a weapon onto other actions that don't have any such restrictions. Being able to pre-measure before issuing an order is not a case of "the rules don't say I can't," in fact it's pretty much the exact opposite. The restriction of declaring a target and not pre-measuring is something specific to the act of firing a weapon (and to an extent assault)-- sort of a "the rules say I have to." It's a specific requirement on shooting that just happens to show up a lot because shooting is one of the most common actions in the game. In reality though the "natural state", if you will, of the game is that there is no general purpose restriction on pre-measuring.
By the same token there's nothing in the rules requiring you expend an order if you find yourself out of range. If you want to issue the "Move Move Move" order to a particular unit and find they're not in range, you don't then have to use it on somebody else then. As you're not required to declare a use of the order and then try to resolve it (as you are when shooting), until you actually use the ability by picking up the dice and rolling for leadership you aren't committed to anything. If I want Eldrad to cast Fortune on that falcon sitting nearby but find it's just out of range, I can turn around Guide the guardian squad sitting nearby without issue.
I agree with you here 100%. I think that they should put in a restriction that if you issue an order to a unit and they are not within range, then you've wasted an order. Logicwise it makes more sense as you've already issued the order but the unit just didn't hear you clearly. Otherwise, how can you tell if a unit is in range just by looking at them.This example, is specifically why we think that if you select a unit outside the range, it just gets lost in the vox system. ( I know logic insertion ) We think that issuing the forward unit to Move Move Move, then realizing they can't hear you, issuing Move Move Move, to a nearby unit just because didn't make any sense. We understand that you can just then choose not to issue any order at all. Which circles us back to #2 from above.Here's a paradoxical rule. You've already declared which order you'll going to issue. Let's say, for example, Move!Move!Move!. Then you find that all the units within range have gone to ground. Did you just wasted an order, or could you go back and re-declare your order (for instance, Get Back into the Fight!)?Although, in this case the order of steps is still important, determining order (Move, Move, Move), then selecting a unit, finding its out of reach and stuck in the open, even selecting a new unit within range, the commander has already declared which order, and thats the one that gets sent.
Absolutely nothing personal taken Deris87.
I'd like to quote the rule, so we're clear.Originally Posted by IG Codex, pg 29I believe this is an incorrect assumption. The rules don't allow for just measuring anything for the sake of measuring, I feel its essentially the opposite. Before the game starts you aren't allowed to measure the distances between two ruins, or between terrain. Nor can you after game start, can you measure the distance between a pair of your opponents units. *** edit. pg 3 BRB, measuring distances 3rd paragraph.Originally Posted by jy2Yes, I do believe you would have just wasted the order. As you were attempting to issue the Move! order, to a non-qualifying unit. As you are only allowed to issue 1 order, once its declared, it either resolves or it doesn't.Originally Posted by jy2
Last edited by Xpyre35; May 28th, 2009 at 04:53. Reason: pg ref for measuring distances.
There is simply no rule that says what happens if there's no eligible target for the order in range. Saying the order is lost is just as much 'making up rules' as any other solution. If you've done something that is impossible to resolve in the rules, it is safe to say you have broken the rule and/or used it incorrectly, go back and do what it says.
The rule says: select a unit in his range. It does *not* say: select a unit and then check if it's in his range. If you selected one that's not in his range, you used the rule wrong, go back and do it right. It is illegal to select the unit if you don't first know it is in his range. The rule required you to know it's in range at the time you select it for it to be a legal selection.
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