does a painby give feel no pain to a warboss in his unit? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    does a painby give feel no pain to a warboss in his unit?

    does a painboy give feel no pain to a warboss in his unit? does it allow himself to roll FNP?? i currently use 2 warbosses, 9 nobz and a pain boy in 1 squad. i cant decided if warbosses do or dont get FNP.


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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by warboss69 View Post
    does a painboy give feel no pain to a warboss in his unit? does it allow himself to roll FNP?? i currently use 2 warbosses, 9 nobz and a pain boy in 1 squad. i cant decided if warbosses do or dont get FNP.
    I would have to say ‘No,’ the attaching of a Warboss does not make it part of ‘his’ (Painboy’s) unit.

    Whilst there is no ownership defined in the rules I would think that ‘his’ unit is most likely the same as ‘his’ killpoint.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Member RangerRob's Avatar
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    Adding the pain boy gives the Nobz unit the universal special rule "Feels No Pain" this will either confer onto individual characters or not following the Universal Special Rules in the 40k rule book. These rules differ depending on the Special Rule.

    For example, if you look under the Fearless special rule, it says this: "This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit."

    Feel No Pain has no such note, so that means it does not confer onto independent characters that join the unit.

    Some of the rules (the ones marked with a *) are actually lost if the unit/independent character joins with another unit/independent character that does not also have the same special rule.

    This is like any special ability of a unit, just think of "Feel No Pain" as being written under the "Special Rules" section for the Nobz in the Ork codex. Those other special rules do not necessarily get automatically put on any independent character that joins the unit, and Feel No Pain is exactly the same.

    This is also spelled out very exactly on page 48 of the 40k rule book under Special Rules. In summary it says that independent characters do not get the units special rules unless the rule says otherwise.
    Last edited by RangerRob; August 19th, 2009 at 07:25.

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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by RangerRob View Post
    Adding the pain boy gives the Nobz unit the universal special rule "Feels No Pain" this will either confer onto individual characters or not following the Universal Special Rules in the 40k rule book. These rules differ depending on the Special Rule.

    For example, if you look under the Fearless special rule, it says this: "This special rule is gained by any independent character joining a fearless unit."

    Feel No Pain has no such note, so that means it does not confer onto independent characters that join the unit.

    Some of the rules (the ones marked with a *) are actually lost if the unit/independent character joins with another unit/independent character that does not also have the same special rule.

    This is like any special ability of a unit, just think of "Feel No Pain" as being written under the "Special Rules" section for the Nobz in the Ork codex. Those other special rules do not necessarily get automatically put on any independent character that joins the unit, and Feel No Pain is exactly the same.

    This is also spelled out very exactly on page 48 of the 40k rule book under Special Rules. In summary it says that independent characters do not get the units special rules unless the rule says otherwise.
    Well said for the most part, but now we will have to suffer the slings and arrows from the counter argument that the Painboy gives the special rule to ‘his’ unit and IC’s become part of that unit when attached.

    For the lesser part, the USR asterisk marking tells us that the rule denies transfer if so marked and since FNP is NOT marked it does not deny transfer, so I think that you may have to look at that one again please.

    The key here I still think is exactly what the Painboys unit really is and honestly its very debatable.

    Thanks.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    It seems the rules for Dok's Tools does indeed override the normal rules for a character joining a unit with FNP. He does this by constantly giving every model in the unit the ability, and according to rulebook page 48, joined units are literally part of same unit.

    HOWEVER, the joined Warboss will go back to being his own unit when taking damage in close combat. Since he no longer falls under the jurisdiction of the Dok's Tools in close combat, he will only have FNP against shooting attacks. I guess the Painboy just doesn't have time for him when the assault is on.

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    While I can see the argument for the warboss being a part of "his unit", that seems to me like a fairly weak argument compared to entire sections of the rule book that say FNP would not transfer to an independent Character. The INATFAQ feems to think that the FNP would be conferred onto the warboss from the Pain Boy also. I generally like to use the INATFAQ as a guide for answers, so I'll defer to it, since this issue does seem a bit ambiguous.

    As far as not having FNP for assault, wow, I read the rules on that very closely and you are right, they are treated as separate from the unit and join it again after wounds and saving throws are taken.
    Last edited by RangerRob; August 19th, 2009 at 09:55.

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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krovin-Rezh View Post
    It seems the rules for Dok's Tools does indeed override the normal rules for a character joining a unit with FNP. He does this by constantly giving every model in the unit the ability, and according to rulebook page 48, joined units are literally part of same unit.

    HOWEVER, the joined Warboss will go back to being his own unit when taking damage in close combat. Since he no longer falls under the jurisdiction of the Dok's Tools in close combat, he will only have FNP against shooting attacks. I guess the Painboy just doesn't have time for him when the assault is on.
    I am not buying this reasoning at all.

    An IC combat only differs in assaults the way the book tells you it does and it has no mention of losing or gaining USR’s, so I think that this is a red herring.

    Page 49 says that the IC is still part of the unit and only differs when resolving combat.

    I still think that since the Painboy is one of the Nobs it is only the Nobs that benefit here.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  9. #8
    Scourge Lord Krovin-Rezh's Avatar
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    I dont' think you quite got it then, Wicky.

    Codex: Orks – Dok's Toolz
    "He [the Painboy] confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit."

    Page 49: INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & SHOOTING
    "Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered a part of that unit"

    • Warboss take a wound from bolter fire. Is he a part of the Painboy's unit? Yes.

    Page 49: INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & ASSAULTS
    "When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit."

    • So the Warboss takes a wound from some chainswords. Is he part of the Painboy's unit? No, but he's still joined to the unit. Doesn't that count? If you take a look at all of the rulings on page 48, it goes over EXACTLY what being joined means. Nowhere except in the shooting section on page 49 does it count an IC as part of the unit he is joined to, and assault specifically says he is treated as a separate unit for attack purposes regardless of being joined.

    This situation is unique to the Painboy + joined IC, as far as I know. Other characters that confer special rules to a unit, such as the Chaplain, always confer it to any unit the model has joined. Either that, or they affect all models within a certain range. Neither method cares whether the models are part of the same unit.

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  10. #9
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    I understand your position here well enough mate but to me it still revolves around exactly what 'his' unit is and to me its a bunch of Nobs or the killpoint they represent.

    There appears to be no convincing evidence either way on this one, sorry.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicky View Post
    I understand your position here well enough mate but to me it still revolves around exactly what 'his' unit is and to me its a bunch of Nobs or the killpoint they represent.

    There appears to be no convincing evidence either way on this one, sorry.

    "He scored the goal for his team."
    "He [the Painboy] confers the Feel No Pain ability to his unit."

    Sure, the painboy may not be the captain, but it's still his unit.
    "And they shall know fear." - a particularly evil Daemon Prince

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