Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hello, fellow LO Warhammer 40.000 players!
I apologize if this thread should go somewhere else. I thought it best to put it with the rules section. To get on topic, I have just read someone post this:
Now it has happened around here that quickly done army lists turned out to be accidentally 60 points over the limit in hindsight, because the player had no time to double-check the cost. Mistakes just come and go, and they can hit everyone and anyone everywhere and anywhere anytime.
But 250 points + free infiltration seems a little too much to overlook, and since that player seems to have kept his list hidden (something that is definitely not okay - players can agree to keep their lists secret throughout the game for bluffing purposes, but I have to show it to my opponent by the end of the game at the very least and latest!) it does appear that he has played with an illegal force on purpose.
I am a total virgin concerning situations like these and my innocent mind is appalled. Now is this an extreme exception as it would seem to me and as I would wish it to be, or do things like those happen more often if you play strangers? (Or - even worse - your friends?!?!)
Honestly, it doesnt happen alot. Most people to their best to make sure they are playing with the right number of points/with the right rules. That being said, I have come across situations where people were being intentional deceitful (aka cheating) whether it was playing in a tournament with units they didn't pay for, using cheat dice, or flat out just miss using the rules (ie using mulitples of 0-1 units/items). In these situations I have always found it best to question them regarding it first (in case it was a mistake) and then go from there. If they continue being deceitful or if the situation is confusing, bring in a third party like a tournie judge or store owner. This not only brings in an additional witness to the behaviour but also can help avoid looking like an ass if your wrong . After that, if the behavior has been confirmed I usually leave it to the local authority (TO, shop owner/employee) to handle the situation, because my answer would be to take them out back and beat them with an old metal carnifex or stegadon in a sock.
Oh hey. Yeah, we pretty much just told him that if he does it again, he can't play with us anymore. We're all new-ish to the game except Space Marine kid, and he wasn't there that day. lol
I am fortunate to know most codexes for I am a statistics freak and rely a lot on knowing my enemy, what his units can do and what weaknesses they have, etc. But since I have been away from Warhammer 40k a while there are some armies whose new codexes I haven't yet seen (e.g. Orks) so I would probably be plain blind to any cheating attempts.
And even with the codexes I do know I would just trust my opponent to have it all right and not even care to think about adding up points or checking if a unit can be taken only once, etc. It just wouldn't occur to me (unless, of course, its outright hilarious, like encountering a 2,000 points army in a 1,000 points game).
It's a good thing you also pointed out behavioral guidelines for situations that involve (possible) cheating. It's actually pretty obvious and the only right way to go, but once you're tied up in one of these situations your judgement is probably impeded.
I don't know how I would react in the shock of discovering that someone is cheating. Aggressiveness won't ever pay off and probably not solve anything, but my temper is easily thrown of balance, especially by people who purposefully deceive you and are stupid enough to fail at it even though you are a trustive person...
Staying calm, bringing in some 3rd party especially if they have authority at the location is definitely the only wise thing to do. You probably have to remind yourself of that in such a situation, and not get angry or even let the opponent have his way (which is almost as bad because he will continue cheating others).
Thanks for your reply. Rep for you.
Yeah, stopping to play cheaters as long as they cheat is the least I would do. But I think you should also get the word out to others about people who cheat. Maybe that will teach them to change their ways.
But if he's in your regular gaming group constant control can't be the answer. You should slowly start giving him some trust again and see if he abuses it.
If he doesn't he probably learned his lesson and can be trusted again (though this doesn't mean he can't be picked on anymore for that thing he pulled off). If he does, well... your gaming group will probably shrink in numbers.
That's what I would do, I guess.
Unfortunately, sometimes I find that you just have to be familiar with other codices to catch these "cheats". I find that a lot of people are "misinformed" about their own armies. They're not so much as knowingly cheating as they are mistaken about their forces. Many times have I had to correct my opponents such as "no...your battle cannon is not AP2 but only AP3 so you don't ignore my terminator's armor saves" or "no, Telion does not give all his scouts the stealth USR...they still need to buy camo cloaks to get the bonus cover save." These are the type of players who I would call "but-he-told-me-I-could" players - they were told by other misinformed players on how something works but never bothered to find out for themselves.
And a lot of times, people don't bring their lists with them. It's from "memory" or the list is done on the spot. Basically, if his army doesn't look right, ask him to show how he got to it pointwise. I've actually played a 1500pt game in which my opponent brought a 2000pt list (I didn't find out until I got home and calculated his army because I thought it was rather large for 1500...and I would've won had the game ended on turn 5!). Another time I played a 3000 apocalypse game and my opponent brought about 5000pts! These players didn't have their lists with them.
Unfortunately, if you aren't familiar with the rules or other codices, these players, unknowingly or not, will get away with their "cheats". You just have to call them out anytime you feel something is not right. "You sure they can infiltrate?...Show me on your codex please."
Last edited by jy2; September 2nd, 2009 at 21:08.
Ask me about the Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike!!!
A common trend for any friendly games I play is to give a quick rundown of all my units and their more noteworthy additions at the start of the game (after deployment). This is often needed simply because of minor proxied things (such as converted weapons or invisible gear like grenades). My opponent has always reciprocated with the same gesture after I do it. So this creates a situation where we've both had a chance to take stock of what we're facing. I have studied all the codices, so I can count on my gut to tell me if there's too many points on the board. And if I can't remember how many points something costs, I'll just ask. If something is wrong on either side, we'll get a chance to fix it before the action starts. I know there's an element of secrecy that can be helpful, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
In a couple games where time was scarce, I left out this step. It would have been helpful in one of them, but the player was only a newbie and not a cheater.
--•-My 40K projects-•--
in my very first 40k game i was playing combat patrol (end of 4th ed) against tyranids and he said that if my rangers (eldar) were father than 6" in cover to their target that cannot shoot, even if they had line of sight. i didn't want to question this being me first game so i went along with it. i went home after the game ( i won ) and flipped through the rules but found no such thing. was he cheating? and if he was karma kicked his ass to the curb. being beaten by a first timer how embrassing
Phantom Fists- 1000-1500 3/4/3 (DIY CHAPTER)