Wildfire - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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Thread: Wildfire

  1. #1
    Scourge Lord Krovin-Rezh's Avatar
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    204 (x6)

    Wildfire

    Wicky and I had a civil discussion about the Talos special rule, Wildfire, and whether it can fire at models in close combat. Check out the rule on p 12 of the DE codex before weighing in on this one, because the rule is pretty strange.

    Here's a synopsis of how I interpret it.

    Start with the standard rules for shooting attacks and make the following changes:

    1. The Talos doesn't shoot at a specific target, so there is no unit being targeted as described on BRB p16.

    2. Roll to hit as normal, referencing the section "Roll to Hit" on BRB p17 (which is just about the way BS is tested). This is done without picking a target (as per #1), so the hits are just floating around at this point.

    3. Allocate any hits against individual models as described in the special rule.

    4. It is noted that models from different units can be hit by using this method.

    5. The normal rules for range and line of sight are reinstated because those rules were skipped in step 1 above. The limitation of shooting at models locked in combat is not mentioned.

    Wicky maintains that the Talos cannot shoot into assaulting units because the act of attacking in the shooting phase always carries the restrictions of shooting. While I agree with those sentiments, I don't see how the rule can possibly apply to Wildfire because there is no unit being targeted. In fact, there appears to be nothing targeted at all. Hits are simply allocated according to a what the special rule says.

    Anyway, we're both looking for additional informed people to help with this decision. Thanks in advance for the help.


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  3. #2
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    First all, I want to say that I don't believe the rulebook can concretely prove or disprove this. There are only intepretations here and in the case of a disagreement in a game, a roll-off would be the best solution.

    With that said, I don't believe wildfire can affect units locked in cc. Wildfire lifts the restrictions for targeting a single unit and also the rule where the owning player removes the model. However it makes no mention that you can fire into a unit in close combat. Because of that, it has to follow the rules for shooting attacks with regards to firing into combat, which is you can't do it. I don't really see a conflict here between him shooting at the closest models and shooting into combat - the two can still work...talos would just be able to affect the closest models not in cc.

    Fluffwise, it wouldn't make sense that talos could target enemies in cc. He is not a sniper or expert marksman. He is just firing wildly without regards. In melee, everyone is moving, both allies and enemies. If he was firing wildly into the chaotic, swirling melee, how can he just hit the enemies and not his own troops as well?

  4. #3
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Krovin I still believe that the main problem area for you is believing that there is no ‘target.’

    So your point 1 -
    “The Talos doesn't shoot at a specific target, so there is no unit being targeted as described on BRB p16.”

    Should read –
    1. The Talos doesn't shoot at a specific target as determined by the core rules, follow the targeting rules listed in the codex instead.

    That Codex goes to great lengths to tell exactly how to target something here and it’s only the targeting mentioned – certainly nothing about ignoring the shooting phase proper as given by the BGB.

    But I await other opinions also.
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  5. #4
    Scourge Lord Krovin-Rezh's Avatar
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    204 (x6)

    My opinion is that you can only target units as described on BRB page 16. Models are not individually targeted unless the rule says so. You say to follow the targeting rules in the codex, but there are no targets described. Allocating hits is not the same thing as picking a target, so when the rule says you do the former, you cannot assume the latter.

    Fluffy stuff: The Talos is not sniping, it is indiscriminately spraying shots at all enemies in range. That's described in the rule. In this way, it is similar to other attacks that assign hits to all enemy models in a radius which also do not pick a target, such as Aura of Decay. AoD can be used while the shooter is in CC though.

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    Senior Member Nhyx's Avatar
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    Ahhh, old codex blues....

    I'd say no to the shooting in close combat, from a basic rules standpoint.
    BUT, from a house rules standpoint, I'd allow it, if we followed the oldshcool/necromunda rules about firing into close combat. 50/50 chance of hitting your own models :-D
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    Senior Member omegoku's Avatar
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    I'd go with ignoring models in combat with Talos for selecting targets
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  8. #7
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Krovin-Rezh View Post
    My opinion is that you can only target units as described on BRB page 16. Models are not individually targeted unless the rule says so. You say to follow the targeting rules in the codex, but there are no targets described. Allocating hits is not the same thing as picking a target, so when the rule says you do the former, you cannot assume the latter.

    Fluffy stuff: The Talos is not sniping, it is indiscriminately spraying shots at all enemies in range. That's described in the rule. In this way, it is similar to other attacks that assign hits to all enemy models in a radius which also do not pick a target, such as Aura of Decay. AoD can be used while the shooter is in CC though.
    The targets described in the Codex are the 6 closest in all cases, you have no choice in the matter as its predetermined when you choose to shoot.

    I am not assuming anything here as diversion from the norm must be proven and the only proven thing is a change in targeting as far as I am concerned.

    And fluff-wise, IF the Talos is as 'indiscriminate' as you have us believe, then how does it always manage to only perfectly target the 6 closest models? There is no randomness here, its precisely that 6 and only that 6 every time - sounds like the most accurate sniper in the entire game to me!
    Last edited by Wicky; October 1st, 2009 at 11:40.
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  9. #8
    Scourge Lord Krovin-Rezh's Avatar
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    204 (x6)

    The indiscriminate thing is just the impression I got, since the weapon sprays "wild volleys" in all directions. The Wildfire rule seems to be an attempt to represent the wild unaimed shots that it uses. From a balance standpoint, I don't think it would be any good if it hit friendly models too.

    No one but Wicky is giving an actual reason to back up their decision. Since I'm not looking for baseless opinions here, you'll have to explain yourself to be a real part of the discussion. Sorry if that sounded harsh, but this is a rules help forum after all.

    Wicky, I just noticed it calls the models targets in the last sentence. So you're right about that one. I still don't understand how the rule meant for targeting units in the normal way can affect the Talos' deviation for targeting models based entirely upon range and LOS. You seem to think the core rule is unwritten but assumed, and furthermore it is altered to fit the situation (models instead of units). That doesn't jive well for me.

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  10. #9
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    I actually find myself on Krovin-Rezh's side this time.

    The Talos Wildfire is something completely different from normal shooting rules. It is listed as a special rule and does not at any point make any reference to normal shooting apart from "rolling to hit". The rest of the procedure is fully described within the special rule.

    If targets in close combat couldn't be hit it would have to read "to the nearest applicable enemy model" or some equivalent to that. But it just reads "nearest model" and does not state that models locked in close combat are an exception.
    It does go on to list some of the other restricitions of normal shooting (line of sight, range) and states that these apply. But for me there is no reason to assume that unnamed restricitions of normal shooting also apply.

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    399 (x8)

    Cannot shoot into combat is a rule.

    Unless the Talos has a rule explicitly stating it can shoot into combat then it cannot.
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