Important Rules Question

[Wicky]

Ok, it,s rare to get the other side of the argument here and kudos to IronFortress for replying so quickly and calmly.

I understand what has happened a bit better now, no slamming needed.

[Akaiyou]

Ok after reading your post Charles I have to point out the following because to say that changing the list mid way wasn't part of the issue is not being honest here. I've been debating that issue CLEARLY over and over and your response to it as others saw is that once I accept the game and the opponent has no list, that I am responsible for whatever my opponent chooses to do.

I didn't even have to put it in those exact words and many others who saw your email got that very same exact interpretation of what you were trying to say. So I know for a fact it's not just me that's taking it the wrong way or something. This is what you've actually been saying wether you realize it or not.

For starters WHEN we started the game Alex asks to see my list and i say 'sure', and show him my list on my psp as usual anyone who's EVER played a game with me knows that my lists are always on point and NEVER over on points or anything illegal about them by standard 40k rules!

I ask to see his list and her says "I left it at home" and I give him a dirty look (dude why would u leave it at home?) and I ask him if he knows what's in it? He says YES, so I say 'are you sure? and are you below 2000 points?' and he says 'yeah i know it by memory and im only 3 points over' and i say 'no that's illegal bring it down' and he says 'ok I have 15 grots, i'll take out a grot they are 3 pts' and i'm like 'ok but email me your list i'm going to make a battle report'

I mention this part just so you all can see how full of crap this guy is, his first list is supposedly 2003 pts!

I will now further clarify this for all parties interested this was the list that Alex Flatto (the Ork Player) sent to my email on Oct 31st 2009 after we played our game on Oct 30th 2009.



This is straight from my GMAIL account look at the date and everything and it doesnt match his original 2003 pt list. I question him about that list and correct it for him while we chat through gmail chat and texting he didn't even remember using Armour Plates on his killa kans! Or using the rokkit launcher he denied both and so i tell him 'you are 30 points over man you added armour plates and rokkit launchers to that list mid game and you didn't have them on there.

Mind you taking out those killa kans was vital to the game and he shoot rokkits to get rid of my tyrant guard. We argue about his list for about 2 or 3 hours! No joke this guy tried everything from telling me 'oh the grots didn't do anything all game lets just count them as if they werent on my list' to 'where in the rules does it say that i need your permission to proxy!'

So then he sends me this a day and half later:



and all of a sudden there's no need to argue! woohoo he has a valid list the game counts! Claiming this was his list all along and that the preivous list was a 'typo'. Notice that his 'new' list is simply an edited version of the first one adding the upgrades I pointed out and removing a meganob to be under the point limit. (where did the meganob go? is what i'm asking)

Would you believe him? I certainly don't. His 'changes' were a bit too convenient and he did not mention any typos when i was chewing him out about the list he sent and had him look it over several times on Oct 31st to prove my point. Everything that came out his mouth was an excuse for cheating.

I brought this point up to the organizer telling him 'this guy was over on points, he used stuff he didn't have, that he just added mid game' and I got into this whole debate about how changing the list mdigame is NOT illegal with the organizer.

Just to be clear that i'm NOT making any of this crap up here is exactly what I wrote to the CO

Dude how else can I explained it to you. I will do this exactly as I explained it to him, this is a basic of 40k.

You NEED to have an army list BEFORE you play the game.

Page 86 of the rulebook is very clear about this.

This is what he did:

1. Forgot his list
2. Deployed his forces
3. Added upgrades to his forces DURING the game, since he did NOT have a list with him.

I found it really weird how that game went, i asked him to send me the army list that he said he forgot at home.

He sends me the list, and his written list does NOT match what he used in game.
I point this out to him by taking the army list that he sent me himself as the army list he was meant to play in that game showing him how he's 35 points over and he says 'oops my mistake'

2 whole days later he sends me a text message saying "dude i was actually 5 points under, blah blah blah my list is legal" and he says he sent me an email with his CORRECTED list that he used. That he claims was all in his head during our game.

His corrected list looks EXACTLY like the list that I SENT TO HIM! Pointing out what he added to his original list minus 1 meganob.
What a coincidence all of a sudden he has a legal army...2 days later.

I explain to him that he cannot play an army of the top of his head adding upgrades as he goes, he tried to dispute this in several ways saying his army was legal because his gretching didn't do a thing all game thus i could just count them as not being part of the game (this was his first excuse even before his corrected list that looks exactly like the one i sent him)

And then he even says and i quote "So what if i was making up the list during the game, if the total comes out legal"
And I tell point him to page 86 where it says CHOOSE YOUR FORCES! Before you do anything else.

And also give him the following example of WHY you can't make up a list during the game.

If i take a carnifex that has a ton of upgrades available. And I just say 'hey this is my carnifex' I cannot play in a game and have the carnifex moving as normal and then decide on which upgrades he has based on the situation that i'm in.

"Oh you shot me with a rocket launcher? Ap3?"

"MMMM lets see what protects me from Ap3? oh yeah Extended Carapace!, yeah my carnifex now saves on 2+"

And then I assault your S3 models and i decide that my carnifex will now have Toughness 7! Even though originally i meant those 20 points to go into something else in my army.

I really would like to be done with this argument, Alex was wrong and he knows it. His original list was mistaken and he's NOT allowed to form up a list during play which is wat he claims to have done.

and this is the lovely reply that I get after making my point about page 86 of the rulebook.

ok... here is how I am reading into the rules from GW.

At no point in page 86 does it specifiy that a player must have a filled out army list for the opponent to review. In fact the only reference to force roster is on page 92 and that is after the game being played.

Which means the following...

#1 if a player does not have a roster ready, one can consider them unready and not play them until they draft one.

#2 if a player does not have a roster ready, one can play them and review their roster afterwards as you are doing.

#3 if a game is played, then the matter is this:

A: Did the player use anything that would exceed the point total allowed. If the answer is no, then they had a valid army to support the result.

B: Does the fact that one provides a list after a fact constitute cheating as it could be Squad-B that had the Melta bombs on the list nd not Squad-C which had the opportunity to do it in game that ended up using it.

#4 Without proof of malice, suspecion is alone is not enough to overturn a game that both player agreed to play from start to finish.


Which means one would have to accept the full game played if a player can fulfill #3A. However, if they end up being over points, the result would be invalid regardless of result. Though, I probably should award the 2vs0 to the player who did get things right and played the full game for their faction.

and i quote again:

Certain suspicions and questions just need to be left alone for one reason or another. Some are just grasping at straws... Once you agreed to play a game, then questioning which squad actually had the wargear is moot. #1 the controlling player did not have the roster at the time the game was played. #2 the opposing player cannot confirm the truthfulness of the list after the fact. By agreeing to play, one takes on the burden of acceptance.

and one last time

Ronny,

You need to only answer what I need to know. All I needed to know is whether or not he used something not on a valid list.

Everything else is not relevent. You played the game, so you accept the fact he didn't have a roster. If you accepted the fact he didn't have a list and played, I cannot fault him for not having the roster. I am total agreeing that one cannot change their list mid-game. However, since he did not have a roster at the time of the game anything he provides is suspect. Wouldn't you agree? By all accounts, I should not accept any roster not available immediately by the time of the game. Hell, you could give me a copy of the list you said you played. I can still say you cannot prove to me that is the list you played that day without physical evidence or notery from that day.

Before this clarification, I would only be invaliding the game because your stance that he did not have a roster. This I cannot do because you played a game accepting that limitation. That would not be fair. What I can do is invalidate it if the models used were over the point limit of the list provided.

I hope you can understand my reasoning based on my past rational and current explaination of things.

My interpretation of everything you said is 'well you played the game you are screwed if he cheated'.

Does anyone else interpret it differently?

If i'm the ONLY person then im definetly over reacting and i will apologize. But I highly doubt that i'm the only one here seeing that.

[IronFortress]

My interpretation of everything you said is 'well you played the game you are screwed if he cheated'.

So prove to me he cheated... don't tell me why you think he cheated... Maybe with enough people examining the case, we can crack this case


[edit]So far, I am convinced that the Orks invalidated their game by not stating what they had proxied entirely. However, I still would not call it cheating yet.

[Krovin-Rezh]

Army lists themselves don't prove anything, because normally we have to give the benefit of the doubt that you did in fact play with the list you are providing.

So now that it's after the fact with no true evidence of any misconduct which may or may not have happened (such as a video of the game), it's a simple matter of your word against the other player's.

As to whether the army list is required before the game, not even the codices require you to write your choices down. You simply pick units according to the rules mentioned. In this regard, Alex has not broken any rules. The misconduct lies in whether he used units, weapons, wargear, or special rules that were not included in his list during the game. Hence you need the video, or better yet a judge on site that can deal with the problem right away.

[ze_poodle]

Okay, correct me if I get this wrong.

You show up to a game with an Ork player. You have an army list ready, he doesn't but claims that he has the list in his head and sets up. You play a game, which you then lose, and you ask for the army list that he said he had in his head...when he mails it to you later, it's not the army you actually played against. You call shenanigans because you think he added some crap to his list while he was setting up that wasn't in the actual list he produced later. Is that right?

Okay. Firstly, the Ork player stinks of shenanigans. Blatant, poorly-disguised shenanigans. In all honesty though, you should have seen this coming if you agreed to play against a guy without an army list. Secondly, while it definitely looks like you got stooged, this is a game and it's not a huge deal if one guy fudges his list. I hate to say it, but it rarely makes a massive difference if he gets an extra meganob out of nowhere. All it proves is that he's the kind of douchebag who'll try it anyway just to be a douchebag and that you shouldn't be playing with him.

Thirdly, and this is to the campaign organiser: you should have made army lists a requirement. If you're hoping to manage a fair and equal campaign, even an informal one, hard-copy army lists are needed from all players. If he forgot his, it's not hard to give him a pencil and paper and fifteen minutes with the Ork codex to write it out beforehand anyway. Army lists go a long way towards dispelling any chance of shenanigans such as have clearly happened here.

[jy2]

Akaiyou,

This should be easy to prove. Assuming you took pictures of the battle, if your photos show 1 more meganob in the game than on the list, then you've just caught his fib. Again, that's if you took pictures of the battle. I believe that's the type of hard evidence the Organizer is looking for.

[winginson]

This is why I always either ask for a roster, give them some time to make a roster, or ask what has what upgrades at the start of the game. And if it is in a campaign I usually take photos too.

[Akaiyou]

Originally Posted by jy2

Akaiyou,

This should be easy to prove. Assuming you took pictures of the battle, if your photos show 1 more meganob in the game than on the list, then you've just caught his fib. Again, that's if you took pictures of the battle. I believe that's the type of hard evidence the Organizer is looking for.

I did take pics of the battle i was making a battle report and I did look for a pic that shows where he had all his meganobz unfortunately from the angle the most you ever see is 3. Due to them having been embarked in a battlewagon and disembarking on it's side.

Then they got assaulted and had some killed off so you never see more than 3 in the pics. But he for a fact confessed while we argued about it through texting that day and then 2 days later he came back with his 'new' list and we debated the matter through texts and he kept insisting that it doesnt matter if he proxies anything he wants and that it doesnt matter if he makes his list up as he goes as long as he doesnt go over 2000 pts. Read it urself.

Here's one of our gmails conversations after he texted me about his new list and told me to go look at it in my email and i wont even copy and paste the text just so that nobody can say 'oh you probably edited it' i'll do it by print screen like with the army lists he sent.





This is why i keep insisting to charles that Alex changed his list mid game and why I have to point out that saying 'nobody changed their list mid game' is wrong, because he did. I was there and he admitted it in a text during our heated debate over this and i kept telling him that he cannot do that no matter what.

[Errors]

Wow...I'm not sure what I can really contribute on how to handle the outcome of the current situation, however I can make some strongly suggested opinions on what should happen to avoid situations like this in the near future.

Akaiyou, in the future you should probably not play anyone who does not provide an army list that they are currently playing against you. Easy enough to do, no one that I know can remember 2000+ points of an army list and get upgrades, numbers, war gear, special rules, etc...totally correct. Even if they were some sort of savant I would still require an army list to be provided. Also, as a side note, just reading through your chat logs you provided, I know it can be frustrating dealing with situations like this but holy molly if I ever caught anyone talking to me like that as I see you did I would instantly close the chat.

IronFortress, as an overseer of a campaign you are running, you are the final stop on the rules. I find is incredibly petty that I'm seeing rule interpretations on something as simple as just organizing a game. I would tack on the rule that army lists should be required before a game is played and have been seen by both parties. Sort of a confirmation thing. Anything off the beat path of submitting army lists should easily throw up red flags for you to investigate. (ie...running a army list purely from memory)

Look I'm sure both of you two are great people and just caught in the middle of dealing with this mess, but sometimes it's nice just to step away and take a breather for a second and try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. As I'm sure the both of you are clearly well aware of and well it's become very cliche, "It's a game, have fun."

Like I said nothing really to help the current situation and I do hope you manage to come to some sort of resolution.

[Xpyre35]

I don't quite understand the side the Campaign Organizer ( Hello, IronFortress Welcome to LO ) is trying to maintain.

There isn't a "burden of proof" for the accuser. This is not a criminal type case. This more closely resembles a civil case, in where the preponderance of evidence, is used to determine what's correct and or fair.

You have a player in a campaign, playing without a written list.
You have a list proved; which is inaccurate.

Then you have another list provided; with "corrections".
Here is where the major part of the problem. If it was a typo from 5 MegaNobs Instead of 4 MegaNobs, the points value would still have been 160pts.

There is no way the Ork player typo'd the 5 and the 4 AND the 160pts and the 200pts.
This is obviously a "fixed" list, NOT a typo correction.

I don't know either player, I don't know the Organizer. But impartially, the weight of information seems to very heavily lean toward the non-Ork player.

I understand the CO is not judging the games, nor supervising them in anyway. With the accusations alone, should invalidate the game for both players. A warning to both players, that if another inconsistency arises, they will be evicted from the campaign. With the evidence presented (thus far) you owe it to the members of your campaign to look into it farther than, "show me a video" Or have another clause, that specifies that any conflicting reporting of game results will result in warnings and/or disqualification of said game.