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Jaws of the World Wolf controversy

3K views 39 replies 14 participants last post by  jy2 
#1 ·
There seems to be 2 camps on how Jaws of the World Wolf works.

The 1st camp says that Jaws, because it is a psychic shooting attack, needs to follow the rules for normal shooting attacks (unless explicitly told otherwise in its descriptions). Thus, as a shooting attack, it needs a target and LOS to that target.


The other camp claims that Jaws has its own targeting rules - that it doesn't need to select any target and thusly, because there is no target, then there is no LOS required. Thus, if the opponent had a model hiding behind a big building that blocks all LOS, Jaws can still be used to hit him.

How do you think Jaws works?
 
#2 ·
I follow the 2nd camp. I do disagree with the sniping ability which I would be shocked if it stayed after an FAQ. The wording suggests to me it doesn't need to hit, LoS etc. Although the SW Codex was written by illiterate idiots so anything is possible.
 
#3 ·
It's declared as a psychic shooting attack in order to prevent the Rune Priest from using any other ranged weapon (at least that's the way I read it). The RAW for JOTWW would suggest - to me anyway - it also does not need to adhere to the normal rules for shooting, ie LOS etc.

In other words, I'm in the 2nd camp too.

E.
 
#4 ·
I agree that gw can be illiterate sometimes but I feel like the majority of these kind of problems stems from power gamers who want to do nothing but win. Now I'm not saying winning isn't important but if you and your friends don't have fun playing really what's the point? I refuse to play wiith people who run power lists that are completely unfluffy. Or people who try and bend the rules to win. Id much rather losse the a good playere then a hand me down list some1 on the internet came up wtih. As far as this question goes no where in the rules for Jaws does it say it ignores the rules for shooting so I'm inclined to go with the first
 
#5 ·
I'm with the first camp.

JotWW describes how it is used - that the RP "may trace a straight line along the board...ending 24" away". Does this then substitutes his need to have a target? Or is it just a description of how it is used subject to all the other requirements of shooting? Some people see this as crystal clear that he doesn't need a target. I, on the other hand, believe that this isn't clear at all. The description does not answer conclusively RAW-wise:

1) do you or do you not need LOS to the target?

2) do you or do you not need to select a target?

In the absence of such instructions, you have to fall back to the default rules as defined by shooting attacks in the BRB.

Actually, there is a target but instead of it being a unit, it is a model: "if the model fails the test, it is removed from play." However, that doesn't change the fact that you still need LOS to your target.
 
#7 ·
If you follow the rules for psychic shooting attacks, then no, you wouldn't be able to use it from inside a LR as you have no LOS because there are no fire points.

However, if you follow the camp that says you don't need a target or LOS, then yes you should be able to use it from within a LR. In this case, you don't need fire points because you don't need LOS. I feel that this is totally wrong and not the Rules-as-Intended (RAI). RAW-wise, there is nothing to justify you being able to do this.
 
#9 ·
The thing is, it doesn't say ANYTHINGabout targeting.

Imagine if Jaws was an actual gun and its description says: the RP may shoot a straight line along the board...ending 24" away.

Great, it's just told you how it is used.

Just because it doesn't mention about targeting does not mean there is no target. It doesn't have to. The default is that you need a target and you need to be able to see that target. Unless it explicitly says otherwise (which it doesn't), you have to follow the rules as defined under shooting attacks.
 
#10 ·
second camp for sure

the target is the the point 24" away, which doesn't have to be in line of sight since that line can go through anything.

and then, any models that happen to fall in this line, suffer the effects of the power and take the checks.

have a look at the other shooting attacks available to the rune priest. they either simply have a normal shooting profile, or say the words "target unit" somewhere.

now have a look at jaws. no shooting profile. no mention of a target unit (or target model or target anything). you're taking the sentence about the affected models out of context. it describes the affects that the power has on models that incidentally are touched by the line (AFTER the 24" line is established, ie targeted). nothing more.

jaws just mentions the 24" line. that's the "target" right there. the 24" line.
 
#11 ·
Ref "needing targets": would it also not be likely that the RP would be positioned so as to strike as many models as possible within that 24" range along the straight line? The power's rules give the player carte blanche as to where he aims the 24" line, and naturally he will want to make the power as productive as possible. Hence are those models which fall under the line not his target(s)? Over-simplified viewpoint perhaps, but let's put it this way: the RP player is not just going to throw the line down haphazardly and not hit anything.

As far as needing LOS: if the line goes through terrain - any terrain, since the type is not specified (see P.88 BRB, para 2 under "How much terrain?" for clarifications on terrain affecting LOS) - there is no problem with LOS since the power may pass through unaffected by the terrain.

E.
 
#13 ·
JOTWW only may pass through terrain, not vehicles. A transport is not terrain, as per the descriptions for terrain given in the BRB. A vehicle may *become* terrain if it suffers a "destroyed - wrecked" result. In that case then yes, the power (IMHO) could pass through it as it is now classed as terrain and JOTWW may pass through terrain. However, the models being transported would already have been forced to disembark and could therefore be targetted anyway.

E.
 
#14 ·
its not down to what you think but what it says
Unless it persifically says that it is didn't from normal ones, it is not.
Its is very clear, otherwise people could say they dont have to target units with other weapons cos it dont say you have too. Link it back to the Rule book and you follow the noob instructions of how to play the game.
All weapons psyhic or not need targets so unless it clearly says it doesn't then it does.
 
#15 ·
I would imagine that the less-than-precise wording may come about because they expect people to know how this kind of attack works. To me it seems like it's worded in a way to make it work the same way as an Eldar Vibrocannon (and I feel like that's not the only thing that's ever existed that attacks this way, but can't bring another to mind atm). The vibrocannon, even though it's a gun, simply does exactly what it says...draws a line of xx length. It doesn't fire like a regular weapon because it's not a regular weapon. Regular weapons have a range, type, strength, AP, and possibly other rules. The Vibrocannon does something different, simply drawing a line. The FAQ, to the best of my recollection, states that it doesn't require LOS and can even hit units in combat if the line clips them (including your own!). It certainly doesn't behave like a normal gun, because it has its own rules. I would assume that JOTWW is the same way...sure, it's a psychic shooting attack, because that's what it's classified as. Just like the Vibrocannon is Artillery. But that doesn't mean it fires like shooting a bolter. I'm firmly in camp #2, as that basically describes the working of another weapon that is worded in a similar manner.

As far as firing from a transport, unless I'm mistaken the transport still must have a Fire Point to fire a psychic shooting power out, even if there is no LOS required. After all, the rules for shooting out of vehicles say you can't shoot out unless there's a Fire Point. So it's not a matter of whether you can draw LOS or not, you simply can't fire out of a vehicle with no Fire Point.

My 2 cents, anyway. The psychic shooting with no LOS from a vehicle is definitely covered in the INAT FAQ, but I'm fairly sure that's just a clarification of what you could arrive at simply by applying exactly what the Fire Point rules say.
 
#18 ·
I would imagine that the less-than-precise wording may come about because they expect people to know how this kind of attack works. To me it seems like it's worded in a way to make it work the same way as an Eldar Vibrocannon (and I feel like that's not the only thing that's ever existed that attacks this way, but can't bring another to mind atm). The vibrocannon, even though it's a gun, simply does exactly what it says...draws a line of xx length. It doesn't fire like a regular weapon because it's not a regular weapon. Regular weapons have a range, type, strength, AP, and possibly other rules. The Vibrocannon does something different, simply drawing a line. The FAQ, to the best of my recollection, states that it doesn't require LOS and can even hit units in combat if the line clips them (including your own!). It certainly doesn't behave like a normal gun, because it has its own rules. I would assume that JOTWW is the same way...sure, it's a psychic shooting attack, because that's what it's classified as. Just like the Vibrocannon is Artillery. But that doesn't mean it fires like shooting a bolter. I'm firmly in camp #2, as that basically describes the working of another weapon that is worded in a similar manner.
An excellent example - the vibrocannon. +Rep. I was trying to think of a weapon/psychic power analogous to Jaws. This one would probably be most similar to how it works. The thing is, the vibrocannon was FAQ'd so that it doesn't require LOS. Jaws hasn't. However, this gives a glimpse of RAI as to how Jaws should work.


Take a look at the rune priest spell Thunderclap

you place a template on the runepriest. that is the affected area.

then, if any models are in the affected area, they take the effects. even if only one enemy model was under the template, and lets say that enemy was not in LOS of the rune priest

the spell still goes ahead. you can't say the this "enemy target" is not in LOS, so the power can't be used.

note here that this psychic power makes no mention of thge word "target", but is still classified as a psychic shooting attack

the affected area of the spell is determined. AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be in this area take the effects of the spell

So it's describing an area of effect. Big deal. Ordnance weapons have an area of effect also. So do temp weapons. Any enemy model touched by my temp marker gets hit. It doesn't exclude you from having to pick a target in the first place.


now lets take a look at the rune priest spell Jaws

you draw a 24" line from the rune priest. ok simple.

AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be on this line take the effects of the spell


To conclude,
you determine the affected area of the power, exactly as described in the CODEX. no more, no less.
and then, you determine what happens to those in the affected area. no more, no less.
Exactly, the "draw the line" explains the area of effect of the power. Anyone caught in its "area of effect" is subject to its consequences. It answers the "how" but not the "who".

Here's how it should work. You use the power on unit (model) A. Behind unit A is impassable terrain and unit B. The power hits A and continues to go through terrain to hit unit B as well. However, you cannot use the power specifically on unit B itself because you can't see him behind the terrain, even though the power can go through the terrain (unless the RP has X-ray vision and can see exactly where the target is behind the hill so as to open up the ground underneath it).



Determining the affected area of the spell, and then determining what happens to any models that happen to be within the affected area (including friendly models) are two separate things.

To those who say that it doesn't specify, and so you have to make the assumption of using the the rules for a shooting profile -- It DOES specify. It says draw a line 24" from the rune priest. That right there describes how to use the spell. Doing what the book says, no more no less, that's RAW. Making assumptions, is not RAW.

It describes how to use the power and that's all it does. It's worded badly. The only assumption being made here is when you draw the line, you don't need a target. And that is not RAW. That is contrary to what a shooting attack does.
 
#17 ·
Take a look at the rune priest spell Thunderclap

you place a template on the runepriest. that is the affected area.

then, if any models are in the affected area, they take the effects. even if only one enemy model was under the template, and lets say that enemy was not in LOS of the rune priest

the spell still goes ahead. you can't say the this "enemy target" is not in LOS, so the power can't be used.

note here that this psychic power makes no mention of thge word "target", but is still classified as a psychic shooting attack

the affected area of the spell is determined. AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be in this area take the effects of the spell


now lets take a look at the rune priest spell Jaws

you draw a 24" line from the rune priest. ok simple.

AND THEN, SEPARATELY, whichever models happen to be on this line take the effects of the spell


To conclude,
you determine the affected area of the power, exactly as described in the CODEX. no more, no less.
and then, you determine what happens to those in the affected area. no more, no less.

Determining the affected area of the spell, and then determining what happens to any models that happen to be within the affected area (including friendly models) are two separate things.

To those who say that it doesn't specify, and so you have to make the assumption of using the the rules for a shooting profile -- It DOES specify. It says draw a line 24" from the rune priest. That right there describes how to use the spell. Doing what the book says, no more no less, that's RAW. Making assumptions, is not RAW.
 
#19 ·
yes 24" but surely you must target a single enemy and the line must go to/through him so if its 12" away it goes 12" to him from RP and then 12" out the other side?

and then any unit that falls under this line also gets attacked

Untill they bring out a FAQ for it you must play by the worded rules and unless it clearly states you dont need to target someone (like the vibrocannon apparently does in the FAQ) then you must target an enemy
 
#21 · (Edited)
Ugh.

Sometimes I think rules-lawyering convolutes the rules more than GW "being illiterate" does.

Quoth the Codex (Page 37)
"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain, Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see...). If the model fails......"

Dissection.
1) "the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away."

On the contrary to what jy is claiming, the rules clearly state how the power is to be used. If it helps you to understand, consider the board as your target -- "straight line along the board" -- although there really is no target. For there to be a target, the wording would instead be something akin to:

"trace a straight line along the board to an enemy unit within 24."

See also: Eldar Support Weapons, Vibro Cannons (Codex Eldar, page 45). They are similar in effect, and it too is not required to acquire a target before firing.

Not every rule requires a disclaimer "Just in case you did not notice... these rules are different from those presented within the rule book."

EDIT: Just in case.. I might sound hostile, but I assure you I am not. I am just very sick and cannot compose my thoughts at the moment. I apologize if that is how I come off, though.
 
#22 ·
mkerr's summation I posted in the original post:

Originally Posted by mkerr of Chainfist.com
PSYCHIC SHOOTING POWER
JotWW is one of those powers (like Lash of Submission) that is a "psychic shooting attack" in name only. It doesn't share many of the normal characteristics - or restrictions - of a shooting attack. But let's better understand what a psychic shooting attack is before we start making too many assumptions about JotWW. Here is the text we need from the Psychic Shooting Attacks section of the rulebook (BBB, p5.

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."
"In the same way, if a psyker targets a unit with a psychic shooting attack, then he can only assault that unit in the ensuing Assault phase. Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn)."
So JotWW is a psychic shooting attack (even though it's clearly very different from a normal shooting attack). But some of the above still applies, including:

The Rune Priest can't use JotWW and shoot another ranged weapon in the same Shooting phase (including using another psychic shooting attack).
The Rune Priest cannot use JotWW if he is locked in combat (or if he used Run in the Shooting phase).
But it's also clear JotWW isn't your standard shooting attack and some of the psychic shooting attacks rules just don't apply:

JotWW doesn't have a "target", so there's no requirement for the Rune Priest to "see his target".
Since there's no target, then the Rune Priest isn't restricted on who he can assault after using JotWW.

Mkerr has it spot on. JotWW comes with it's own targeting rules, as well as it's own "damage" rules.

And honestly, even though you can snipe with it... Living Lightning is still a better power the majority of the time. I will never understand the vitriol of non Nidzilla or cron players (because it's goodgamepackyourarmy against those two) towards it. It's really not that great.
 
#26 ·
After rereading this thread, and my post, I noticed this:

"This line may pass through terrain."

Why include this wording if you require line of sight? For the line to pass through terrain, LOS to the end point is likely blocked.
 
#27 ·
While most people here may construe this as "targeting", I don't. As you already know my stance on this, I take the above at its literal meaning. Basically, if there is terrain behind the unit you are using this power on, and another unit behind that terrain, then JotWW would hit the unit in front, go through the terrain and then hit the unit behind the terrain and 1st unit. But if the unit is behind terrain, even though Jaws can go through the terrain to hit the unit, but because a shooting attack requires LOS to a target, then the RP has no one that he can see to use the power on.

I think I would be more in agreement with the majority of the people here if somewhere in its description it said "doesn't require LOS" or "the RP may use this power even on models behind terrain". But that's just me.
 
#28 ·
 
The Adepticon INAT FAQ v.3.1 (12/02/2009) just came out recently. While not official, it's as official as it gets as almost all the major tournaments follow its guidelines.

In it, regarding Jaws of the World Wolf, basically it says that:

1) It doesn't require LOS or a target.

2) Does not affect Jump Infantry or jetbikes.

3) Unit with RP can target different target than the one the RP jaws.

4) The RP is free to assault whomever even after using jaws at a particular unit.


Ok. I'm sold. It's open-target season for my RP's. :sinister:
 
#29 ·
3) Unit with RP can target different target than the one the RP jaws.

4) The RP is free to assault whomever even after using jaws at a particular unit.
Well that already answers the question that I was going to bring up, it's pretty much only a psychic shooting attack just to not let you use JotWW and Living Lightning in the same turn then, otherwise it seems no other shooting rules apply to it.

Was that arguement over whether "Rune Priests could all have the same power as long as their secondary power was different" cleared up? I sorta trailed out of it last time I saw it. I always figured no, as there's that little phrase on the codex page that says all HQ choices should be as unique as possible, on the page that explains other rules such as ATSKNF and whatnot.
My thinking was that "The Amazing Jaws of the World Wolf Brothers! (and some other minor powers that are different)" would break the rule of each HQ having to be unique, as there's nothing unique about all of them having the same ability (pretty sure psychic powers are considered differently from wargear, although they've clearly missed a trick by only having 7 psychic powers, 8 would have been the magic number...)
 
#34 ·
The problem with the psychic powers is more an issue of grammar. Let's examine:

"...nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination."

In this case psychic powers and wargear are both used as adjectives to describe combination.


Let's take a couple more examples:

"I don't like green or blue Space Marines."

They are both adjectives and used to describe space marines. Another way to read it would be "I don't like green space marines or blue space marines."


"I don't like Space Marine or Imperial Guard models."

Here SM and IG are both nouns used as adjectives to describe the object "models". You're not really saying "I don't like Space Marines. I don't like Imperial Guard models." You're actually saying "I don't like Space Marine models or Imperial Guard models."

Thus in the phrase "they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination", psychic powers or wargear are both nouns used as adjectives to describe the object "combination". It is a little confusing, but grammatically it is also correct.
 
#36 ·
its definitely possible for 4 runepriests to have a common psychic power as long as the combination of powers are different. it would be implausible to say that no single power can appear on more than one character - because by that logic if you had njal, you would not even be allowed a single other runepriest. Also, it is possible to have 4 runepriests, but there are 7 powers to choose from and each runepriest MUST choose 2 powers. do the math
 
#37 ·
Whoa Takeda, if it were not possible to have 4 rune priests due to power sharing, Njal would be an exception as he's a special character. That would be due to the same reasons that you can take a saga on a HQ choice that is the same as a saga on a special character that you're also taking, cos you know, special characters are...special.

Still it is the grammar which confuses, but really grammar coupled with the rest of the rule (i.e. the whole "individuals" and "unimaginative tactics" thing) that made me think "no psychic power sharing!". Of course, I'd already done the math on the whole 7 powers thing (as you know, I even wrote about it myself earlier...yeah), so would have figured it more likely that you'd have to field 3 Rune Priests and Njal if you wanted to follow the rules for unique HQs. But really it looks like it's more a case of each rune priest must have a unique combination of wargear, no saga sharing (unless special character) and no two rune priests should have the same two psychic powers (but the same single psychic power is ok).
 
#38 ·
Just want to share some new info.


It seems like my original intepretation of Jaws was right after all - that you do need LOS AND a target (in this case, the model).


It's in the new Space Wolves FAQ which just came out.
 
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