Assaulting Out Of A Deep Striking Land Speeder Storm? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Assaulting Out Of A Deep Striking Land Speeder Storm?

    My question is whether or not you can assault out of a deep striking land speeder storm? On page 70 in the rule book is the entry for open-topped vehicles. It says passengers of open-topped vehicles may assault, even if the vehicle has moved before their disembarkation. On page 95 in the rule book is the entry for Deep Strike. It says that vehicles count as moving at cruising speed. So as it seems by what it states in the rule book, you should be able to deep strike a land speeder storm and then fire and assault with the scouts that disembark out of it. Let me know what you think.


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    Senior Member mente enjambre's Avatar
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    Units who comes via deepstrike cannot assault the same turn that comes into play (except stated otherwise in their respective entries or rules), so no they cannot assault.
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    Thats not what hes saying.

    The Landspeeder Storm is an open-topped transport for scouts. It has the DS special rule. He is therefore asking whether you can DS the transport (counts as moving at cruising speed) and then disembark/assualt because it is open-topped.

    I asked a similar question concerning drop pods, but they dissallow assualts in their entry.
    I can not find a similar disallowance under the landspeeder storm, how strange.

    Though why you'd want to risk getting that close with the DS, and then why you'd want to charge 5 scout into anything I don't know.

  5. #4
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    Here you have the following 2 contradictions:

    1) May assault out of an open-topped vehicle.

    2) May not assault after deepstriking unless clearly stated in their special rules.

    The question is which one takes precendence?


    #2 would take precendence because it would have to satisfy both requirements in order to be able to assault. In other words, you would only be able to assault if it was open-topped and if you would normally able to do so after deepstriking. Since you cannot satisfy the 2nd condition, you would not be able to perform the action at all.

    A simple example would be shooting. If a target is in range, does that mean you can always shoot it? No, because you would also be able to see it. The requirements would be it has to be in range and you have to have LOS to it (at least for most shooting). It's not just satisfy 1 condition...you need to satisfy both.

    Going back to the original question, if you were to play it so that you could assault after deepstriking, you'd run into a couple of problems. First of all, you're totally ignoring the rules for deepstriking. If that is the case, then why not also ignore the rules for fleet. Move your rhino 12", disembark, fleet your infantry and then assault as fleet lets you assault after running. Secondly, all special rules that allow you to assault after deepstriking explicitly says so in their descriptions....for example, the Vanguard's Heroic Intervention and Ymgarl Genestealers Dormant special rule all explicitly state that you can assault the turn they come in (with some conditions though). Rules for open-topped doesn't explicitly allow you do so after deepstriking.


    But I hear the new Blood Angels throws a monkey wrench into this equation. I hear they have deepstriking Land Raiders where you can assault out of after deepstriking. This I gotta see.
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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    I would argue that they can, based on multiple examples, although the issue can go either way and needs specific clarification in the main rulebook regarding Deep Striking transports. The Scouts have not deep struck: the LSS has. The Scouts do not have the Deep Strike rule and cannot arrive from reserves via deep strike. What has happened is that they have embarked on a transport (which is a separate unit in all respects) and the transport has deep struck. They are then disembarking from the transport. It is important that we do not conflate the Scouts and the Storm and treat them as one entity.

    An example: The reason you cannot assault out of drop pods (apart from it being explicitly stated in their entry) is not because the unit that it carries has deep struck, but because you cannot normally assault out of a transport that has moved. However, Forge World produces a special drop pod called a Lucius Dreadnought Assault drop pod, which is just a drop pod with the Assault Vehicle special rule and which can only carry dreadnoughts.

    The reasoning is that by virtue of the pod being an assault vehicle, the dreadnought can assault even though it is inside a transport (the pod) which has moved that turn. If we are to conflate the transport and the unit it carries - by saying that because the transport has Deep Strike and has deep struck, the unit has also - then the Lucius is an oxymoron because the Dreadnought would count as deep striking and wouldn't be able to assault anyway.

    A further example: the new Blood Angels codex contains a new vehicle called the Stormraven, a skimmer transport with the Deep Strike and Assault Vehicle special rule. If, again, we assume that units inside transports that Deep Strike also count as deep striking, then units inside the Stormraven would be unable to assault out of it the turn it arrives via Deep Strike.

    Here you have the following 2 contradictions:

    1) May assault out of an open-topped vehicle.

    2) May not assault after deepstriking unless clearly stated in their special rules.

    The question is which one takes precendence?
    This is a false contradiction, resulting from a conflation of the transport and the unit it carries. The unit of Scouts is inside a separate unit which is an open-topped vehicle and may therefore assault out of it even if it has moved that turn. The transport is a vehicle that is deploying via Deep Strike. There is no contradiction because the Scouts - counterintuitively - are not deep striking. For the purposes of the rules, they're not even on the board until they disembark from the transport, something which happens after it is placed on the table.

    Here's another example. If we're saying that the Scouts are Deep Striking onto the table, why don't they roll scatter dice independently of the Storm? They are, after all, two separate units, and can't Deep Strike together using the one scatter roll. Furthermore, if they are Deep Striking, why are they not placed on the table in the manner mandated by Deep Striking - namely, by placing one model onto the board and then arranging other models in B2B contact in a circle around it? Instead, they disembark from the transport, implying that they follow only the rules for disembarking from transports. Lastly, how can they even Deep Strike without the Deep Strike rule?

    I freely admit that this matter is far from clear, especially considering the wording of the Drop Pod Assault entry in the SM Codex. However, I'm arguing this because, primarily, holding that the Scouts themselves are Deep Striking introduces numerous paradoxes into the ruleset and displays a general incoherence with the rules regarding transports, assaulting, and deploying via Deep Strike, not to mention other transports - such as the Lucius - that are specially designed to allow the units they carry to assault after it has deep struck.
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    I'm with ze_poodle on this one (although it's rare I'd want to DS a LS-S because with it's scout move there probably isn't much that's out of it's range and that way I can get a turn 1 assault)
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    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    I should add the postscript that the Land Speeder Storm is about as desirable as a shot of ejaculate sandwiched between two bits of wood and I would rather have my testicles stapled to a cross with uncomfortably large and rusty nails than actually field one, Deep Striking or no.
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    Senior Member Sancraer's Avatar
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    I also agree with ze_poodle; that was what my previous post was trying to say.

    Just thought I'd mention that a drop pod becomes open-topped when it lands, and therefore the ONLY thing stopping the charge is in its special rules.

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    This is exactly my point. The LS-S if deep striking not the scouts. Deep strike counts as moving as cruising speed. I do not see any conflict in the rules because the scouts are disembarking and assaulting out of an open-topped transport that moved at cruising speed. If you were to try this in a game I dont see any way for your opponent to prove that you are unable to do so.

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    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    It's strongly implied on page 95 of the main rulebook that units deepstriking in a transport are also deep striking themselves -
    "In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

    If transported units were intended to be treated as separate entities there would be no reason for the disembarking exception to exist.


    Edit - it's also worth noting that the DH FAQ indicates that troops arriving via deep striking transport are considered to be deepstriking themselves (given in the example of drop podding troops being eligible targets for the mystic's free shot at deepstrikers)
    Last edited by A.T.; March 22nd, 2010 at 21:30.

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