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I've noticed a lot of blood angels players abusing the librarian dreads rules as of late. Thought I would post this for people who are going to use or face them.
The codex clearly states if you upgrade to a libby you must replace all gear with dccw with storm-bolter and force weapon. That means no frag cannons,flamers, or magna grapple. This is the rule I've seen people break the most. Am I right to call foul?
When one shoots a blood lance, and it goes off with perils, and it shakes the damn thing, does the shot still go off? It would be hella gay if it did. Because it is shaken. What do you think? Does a glancing hit hit before the power? Or does it miss it's NEXT turn of shooting?
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It doesn't state that you cannot buy any of the listed vehicle upgrade options, but I can see where you are coming from and it could get FAQed either way (if at all)
The shot will go off as normal and the dread would not be able to shoot again until the end of it's next turn, when shaken wears off.
What it does stop you from doing is buying two Blood Talons because you can only replace the DCCW's with the Talons, which you no longer have 2. Such a shame, would have been amusing to have a preferred enemy dread hitting on 3's with a reroll and then killing most infantry on 2's with a reroll.... and for each one killed, attack again.
I thought about starting a new thread with this one but upon searching I thought I could add to this thread. Apologies if this is not ok but it kinda fits.
Walkers can fire all their weapons.
Can a Furioso Librarian fire both its weapons and a psychic shooting attack?
I assume yes but this means firing 3 'weapons'
If yes does the blood lance have to hit the same target since it doesn't really target anything?
I had a player try this on me by drop podding the furioso and firing its melta at my tank then letting the blood lance off in a different direction. I said that it was ok to use the lance but it had to go in the same direction as the melta shot as per targetting rules but he claimed that its own rules text overules the rulebook targetting rules.
I think I am right but am unsure and just wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong given the rest of the stupidity in the BA codex. So who is right???
A Librarian Dreadnought doesn't have a meltagun, only a stormbolter, and maybe the possibility for a magnagrapple depending on how the upgrades will get FAQed (if at all, as mentioned by AT).
That said the Librarian Dreadnought certainly is allowed to use both a psychic power aswell as it's weaponry.
As for Blood Lance it's targetting is similar to JotWW so I would follow the SW FAQ on this, which says you still target a model through which you trace the line. This model have to be the first one on the line by the way. My take is that your other weapons would have to be fired at the unit this model belongs to.
But since it's not been FAQed yet I suppose you could be a RAW lawyer and say that the targetting rules allows you to aim it in any direction.
Last edited by LastDinosaur; May 8th, 2010 at 23:11.
I don't know why people would think you can use BL at a different target than your other guns. BL is a PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK! Unless it explicitly says otherwise, it follows all the rules for shooting attacks, which means it has to be fired at the same target as all your other guns.
As for the main question, I'm with AT and moob.
Last edited by jy2; May 8th, 2010 at 23:57.
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However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged
weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of
the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic
shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power
twice in a turn).
so he would have to replace his storm bolter firing with the blood lance. Not sure if this was answered above..
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1. Dreadnoughts choosing to be librarians would be able to take any additional upgrades, these upgrades are counted as being taken after the librarian upgrade is taken into effect. There have been similar cases in the past that have been ruled as such.
2. While Blood Lance is a PSA it doesn't say to target a unit but instead to extend a line in any direction so I'd be inclined to say that you don't have to hit a unit you may have targeted with another weapon. Another argument concerning Blood Lance could be wheither not you can choose to assault any of the units hit with Blood Lance since you did technically shoot them and if you didn't shoot with anything else are you only be able to assault those units hit by the lance.
3. Since you are suffering Perils of the Warp while the power is being fired I'd be inclined to say that the psychic shooting attack would still fire since it says the power goes off even if your killed, also because shooting is simultanteous, you are still able fire any other weapons you have left to fire that phase before perils goes into effect.
Camarodragon brings up a good point though that never even crossed my mind. You'd have to forego shooting one weapon in order to use a Psychic Shooting attack so unless you took a Magna-Grapple you couldn't fire with anything else anyways.
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So the problem is that this is the first ever walker psyker. If he was infantry it would be straight forward. Fire the BL or your pistol.
@Duo_Sonata I'm guessing you are a BA player or at least a sympathiser. The wording on Blood Lance is ambiguous enough that it implies that it ignores targetting rules. But (big BUT) it does not explicitly say it can ignore targetting rules. And the wording for psychic shooting attacks states that all such attacks should be treated as firing an assault ranged weapon. And a psyker must attack its target!
Also not to put too fine a point on it but the power does say that it shoots from the librarians hands and the furioso has no hands so it can't resolve!
re: Perils. If a normal libraian suffers perils of warp from double 1 then the power is resolved even if the perils kills the model so if the furioso gets perils from double 1 then the attack resolves simultaneously with the glancing effect.
Another argument I had with this BA player was that if the Dread stunned itself with perils then in the following turn, could the dread use a non psychic shooting or moving power like unleash rage or shield of sanguinious?
The problem I have is working out what is intended by the codex and what is potential rules bending by BA players. Lets face it, the majority of power gamers (including the two former guard players in my group) are flocking to BA and it has been my observation, having played this game since 1st edition, that power gamers are the types to try and bend rules. I honestly feel that Blood Lance was not intended to be immune to targetting restrictions that apply to every psychic shooting attack.
1. - Could you name any of those 'previous' examples?
2. - While currently unsupported by the rules, Blood Lance is very similar to JotWW that always targets the first model on its path so I'd definetly play it like this.
I agree that a periled librarian dread would still fire all its weapons before sufferering from shaken or stunned.
@dafridge: I see no reason that a stunned dread wouldn't be allowed to use Shield of Sanguinius or Unleash Rage.