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This question really comes into play with the timing of the force weapon power. Some basic information first.
Instant Death in units of multiple wound models (p26) states:
"If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that inflict instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal..."
Force Weapons (P50 ) state:
"Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn." [result is instant death]
Now lets say you have a libby capable of causing a significant amount of wounds in combat (such as Mephiston). He's fighting against a unit of multiple wound models, such as a unit of 3 carnifexes. He jumps in there and causes 4 wounds. There's two possible solutions here. He causes 4 wounds, fexes don't have a save, so 4 go through. He then:
1) Uses the force weapon power to make one an instant death, killing one outright and wounding another 3 times.
2) Can't use his force weapon power because he caused 4 unsaved wounds... which kills one exactly and there's no surviving unwounded guy to kill.
So it's a timing question. When do you determine if you can turn one into an instant death wound - while applying the wounds or after? If it's after all wounds are applied, the opponent that suffered an unsaved wound is already dead. So does making one an instant death wound do anything?
Going hand-in-hand with that question, what if he caused 3 wounds and then uses his force weapon power. He'd cause 2 regular wounds and 1 instant death wound.. but is it before or after everything else is applied. Normally in that case (such as if it was from shooting), you'd kill 1 fex and wound another twice. But if it's after all wound allocation is finished, would you cause 3 wounds to 1 guy and then one would become instant death just killing the wounded guy? Or would it work like shooting and you kill 1 outright wounding a second one twice?
Is this mentioned anywhere else in the rules that I'm missing?
I'd do like this:
The way I see it 'opponent' isn't necessarily an individual model and the unit did suffer unsaved wounds.
- Roll to wound.
- Roll for saves.
- If any failed -> psychic test to see if one of the wounds inflict instant death.
- Apply wounds, instant death ones to unhurt models.
Last edited by LastDinosaur; May 6th, 2010 at 17:09. Reason: rewrote the reasoning to be more clear
It's right there in the description that the Instant Death from the Force Weapon can only be applied after the wounds have been rolled and saved against. By extension, that means it can only happen after the wounds have already been allocated within the unit. That means in your first scenario there would be two wounds on one carnifex, and one wound each on the other two. At which point, you could then choose to use your Force Weapon on any one of the models you wounded.
Double post, see below.
Last edited by Darguth; May 6th, 2010 at 18:29.
1.) Assign wounds to sets of 'like' models.
2.) Perform saving throws for sets of 'like' models.
3.) Opposing models are now 'suffering wounds' from failed saves. Make your Force Weapon test for any 1 wound you inflicted from these to see if it inflicts instant death.
4.) Allocate those wounds to models, removing a full model for any instant death.
So in this particular instance if the Carnifexes are all equipped the same you would remove one model and then inflict 3 wounds to another.
At least, that is my understanding of the rules. Specifically with the rules regarding multi-wound models and how Instant Death affects them, which seem to concretely imply that you determine how many wounds are instant death before allocating them (which means the Force Weapon has to trigger before that time as well).
It's after wounds are assigned to sets of like models for the purposes of making saves. It's before unsaved wounds are allocated to individual models for the purposes of removing casualties. Which I think is different, both in the rules and from just a general logical progression of how it would have to work.