Also, does Arjac's Foehammer give a model Initiative 1 when used as a ranged attack?

From the BRB, page 42:
"all models that suffer an unsaved wound from a thunder hammer....reducing their initiative value to 1"

It does not state how the wound must be caused by the thunder hammer for this to take effect, i.e. it does not say that the unsaved wound must be suffered in melee. I would quite confidently say that yes, using Foehammer will apply the normal thunder hammer effects if it causes an unsaved wound.

As for your other question, sorry mate I'll leave that one to someone else!

HTH

 

Can multiple Rune Priests use their runic weapons to stop the SAME psychic power if previous attempts fail in the same turn?

First entry in the SW FAQ, you roll once regardless of the number of Runic Weapons in range.

It does not state how the wound must be caused by the thunder hammer for this to take effect, i.e. it does not say that the unsaved wound must be suffered in melee. I would quite confidently say that yes, using Foehammer will apply the normal thunder hammer effects if it causes an unsaved wound.

Except Thunder Hammers don't have a shooting profile-- you're not using a thunder hammer to perform a shooting attack, you're using the Foehammer ranged weapon, which in fluff, just happens to also be a TH. Being as Thunder Hammer isn't a category of shooting weapon, and the Foehammer rules don't indicate it has any impact on your opponents initiative (or automatically shaking vehicles), there's no reason to assume the melee attributes apply to shooting. Do you assume an Infernus Pistol ignores armor in CC because it's AP1 in shooting?

 

Except Thunder Hammers don't have a shooting profile-- you're not using a thunder hammer to perform a shooting attack, you're using the Foehammer ranged weapon, which in fluff, just happens to also be a TH. Being as Thunder Hammer isn't a category of shooting weapon, and the Foehammer rules don't indicate it has any impact on your opponents initiative (or automatically shaking vehicles), there's no reason to assume the melee attributes apply to shooting. Do you assume an Infernus Pistol ignores armor in CC because it's AP1 in shooting?

I read this, and it makes complete sense to me. I would almost completely agree with you. It does have its own weapon profile, it is a shooting attack. But at the end of the day, you are being struck in the face with a thunder hammer. So I ask you, whats the difference?

 

You're basically saying that the thunder hammer that is used as a ranged attack isn't the same thunder hammer used in an assault.

Here's an Eldar example. A Singing Spear is S9 vs vehicles whether fired or used in close combat. The Eldar codex says that it follows the rules for witchbaldes which is in the BRB. So, it is following the rules of a close combat weapon EVEN as a ranged weapon. Why wouldn't the Foehammer do the same? I mean, it's not like it is a farfetched idea.

You're analogy is beyond redundant. Why? It's the actual SHOTS FIRED from said pistol that are AP1, not the pistol itself. Whereas the Foehammer is both the thunder hammer being shot with and used in assault.

Also worth noting, the Spear always wounds on a 2+ which is stated in the COMBAT WEAPON profile in the BRB. All things I've mentioned are not in the shooting profile of the weapon. The fluff says that it is treated as a witchblade which you have to look up in the BRB since it is not in the codex itself.

 

You're basically saying that the thunder hammer that is used as a ranged attack isn't the same thunder hammer used in an assault.

That is what he's saying, and he's right. This has come up before. Here's how it breaks down:

Arjac is armed with a thunder hammer, which is a melee weapon with special effects in melee (the Initiative reduction, increased vehicle damage and increased strength.) But it gives him a ranged attack as well, which is him throwing the hammer. This is the exact wording of that rule:

The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:

It then goes on to show the profile of the ranged attack, which is 6'', S10 AP1 Assault 1 and so on. I bolded that line because it's the important part: the Foehammer is not a thunder hammer that can be used outside of an assault. It is a thunder hammer with a second ranged attack that has a different profile. When you're using its ranged attack, you use the ranged weapon profile, exactly as if Arjac was armed with a ranged weapon with that profile. When you're in melee, you use Arjac's profile, i.e. his Strength, WS and Attacks.

The simple fact is that the ranged weapon profile doesn't have the thunder hammer effect in it. It emulates a thunder hammer as accurately as possible, as the profile has a Strength double Arjac's base strength, and it has an AP1 to mimic the power weapon affect, but it does not have a stun effect in the profile. There are no ranged weapons that do that.

The best way to think of it is as if Arjac was firing a S10 AP1 Assault 1 gun. That's all it is: the Foehammer has an alternate ranged attack fired exactly as if Arjac had a gun with that profile, and that profile doesn't have the thunder hammer stun. Nor does it automatically shake vehicles, I should mention.

You're analogy is beyond redundant. Why? It's the actual SHOTS FIRED from said pistol that are AP1, not the pistol itself. Whereas the Foehammer is both the thunder hammer being shot with and used in assault.

That's retarded, no-one is going to pistol whip a dude in close combat. They're going to shoot him; pistols are a close-range weapon. Archon was saying that a model equipped with an inferno pistol doesn't ignore armour in close combat because the inferno pistol only has a ranged attack profile, even though fluff-wise he's shooting people with it at point-blank range. It's a perfectly good metaphor. I'll elaborate.

Let's assume we've got a BA special character with a unique inferno pistol, and the inferno pistol says that it can be used as a S8 melee weapon that ignores armour saves in close combat, which mimics the pistol's ranged profile. This is an exact reversal of Arjac, who has a melee weapon with a ranged profile; here we have a guy with a ranged weapon that has a melee "profile." I say "profile" in quotes because melee weapons actually use a character's profile, but I'll call it that for the sake of coherency.

Now, because his weapon's melee profile says so, he would ignore armour saves and get higher strength, but he wouldn't get bonus dice attacking a vehicle in melee, because despite the fact that the inferno pistol can be used as a melee weapon with a melee profile, that melee profile doesn't have the Melta special rule and doesn't get extra dice for AP. The Melta rule is only in the pistol's ranged profile and only applies when it's used as a ranged weapon. When it is used in melee, even though it has special melee effects, it is using a different profile. A ranged weapon cannot use its ranged profile in melee: Arjac's melee weapon cannot use its melee profile at range.

This is actually really simple, but it can get a little confusing. Like I said, the best way to think of it (and the way the Codex actually describes it) is as if Arjac had a second ranged weapon with the profile listed. The profile has most of the same effect as a thunder hammer, but it has those effects for different reasons, namely ones associated with ranged weapons - it's not taking Arjac's strength and doubling it, it just has S10. It's not ignoring armour saves like a power weapon, it's just AP1. It does not have a way of mimicking the stun and it doesn't have that effect.

If you want a fluff explanation, we can say that because he's throwing the hammer there's less of a oomph behind it as it loses power in flight.

But at the end of the day, you are being struck in the face with a thunder hammer. So I ask you, whats the difference?

In this case, the rules.

 

Hey

My, my, we certainly have a lot of Space Wolves questions...

Directed towards your second point, I would have to agree with Draake. The wording does not state either way that if the Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon or not it will reduce the target model to Initiative 1. Therefore, regardless of the fact that then rule is under the title of Close Combat Weapons, it can be safe to assume that the model can be reduced to Intiative 1 if the Foehammer is used as a ranged weapon, using its mentioned profile.

In regards to your first point, as you said it does not actually specify whether or not that the same Psychic power can be attempted to be stopped more than once, if one Runic Weapon failed. What it says is that if a model succeeds a Psychic Test within 24" of the bearer. Now as we know, there can be more than one bearer with a Runic Weapon within 24" of the aforementioned model. In no way does the codex stiupulate that if one fails, none of the others can assme responsiblity for the same power. Therefore, I would have to say that it can be played that way.

Note also that if a Psyker is capable of using two Psychic Tests in the same turn, or even more, and all of them are successful through a Psychic Test, then all of them can be attempted to be stopped by one or more Rune Priests, equipped with a Runic Weapon.

Also, I should point out thatn if a Psychic Power does not require a Psychic Test to be passed, then the Runic Weapon will be incapable of preventing its activation, as it is said specifically that if a model succeeds on a Psychic Test, not that if it uses a Psychic Power.

Hope that helps!

Good Hunting.

 

The FAQ has corrected the rune priest situation stating:
Page 36, Runic Weapon, replace the fourth
sentence with:
Furthermore, whenever an enemy model
succeeds on a Psychic test within 24" of one or
more models with a Runic Weapon, roll a dice –
[…].

 

I must support ze_poodle here.

The Foehammer is a TH with a ranged profile, and the TH rules are absent from said profile.

 

On the Subject of the Runic Weapon, I'm gonna connect the replaced text from the Errata to the text from the Codex, as we are supposed to do, with the important part bolded.

Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychic test within 24" of one or more models with a Runic Weapon, roll a dice – (FAQ) on a 4+ the power is nullified. (Codex)

Please note that it says roll A DICE, not one dice for each. So 1 Rune priest = 1 dice, 2+ Rune Priests = 1 dice (once again, it says A DICE, the A being singular due to the fact that it doesn't say FOR EACH).

On the issue of the Foehammer: I have to agree with Poodle.

Let's use a different example than the one previously given: The now non-existant Eldar weapon known as the Web of Skulls.

For those that don't know what the Web of Skulls is, let me elaborate:

The Web of Skulls was a power weapon in Close Combat, with the added effect of being able to be thrown with the following profile:

24" S4 AP 5 Assault 1

Also, whenever you rolled a hit, you could roll another hit, up to a maximum of 4 hits on the squad. This is in it's ranged profile.

Now: Even though it's ranged profile says AP5, since it's a power weapon in close combat do I get to ignore all armor saves when I throw it? Because that's what your Thunder Hammer logic suggests.

I think what brings forth this argument is the fact that hes throwing his Thunder Hammer, when really it's just a close combat weapon (that just so HAPPENS to be a Thunder Hammer) with a ranged profile. What you're doing is applying rules due to fluff to the actual game, which just does not work. If we did that with everything, we'd have:

Bolters that shoot blast templates instead of bullets.
ALL Space Marine Chapters being BS 5, I5, and LD10.
Eldar Farseers being able to look at a model funny and kill it outright.
All Grey Knights would be able to take Psychic Powers.
Playing against a Tyranid army would make all non-Fearless models take a LD check at -4 to do anything, due to their terrifying prescence, and the impending doom they bring with them.
Wraithlords and Wraithguard would be immune to Poisoned Weapons.
Models in CC with Howling Banshees would be I1 and WS1 with -1 Attack due to the Banshee Masks.
Eldrad Ulthuan would not have a profile.
Not only that, but ALL Special Characters from the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines could only be used with the particular faction they are associated with (IE: Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Speed Freeks, Iyanden, Emperor's Children, etc.)

I can keep going.

So as you see, applying rules due to fluff is foolish. The Foehammer is merely a Close Combat Weapon with a ranged profile that acts as a Thunder Hammer in Close Combat.

 

Guys, with regards to Foehammer, we've been over this before. The previous thread can be found here. In short, the answer is that the shooting profile and assault qualities of a weapon are not transferable unless the rules explicitly tell you so. In this case, ze_poodle and archon are correct.