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    Moonfang Question

    So I just had a VERY odd situation come up that will probably never come up again. Let me explain what happened:

    I assaulted Korsarro(?) Khan and a squad of bikes that he was with with a Wraithlord, in good faith that the only thing that could hurt it was the hidden power fist. Khan got his attacks first, and rolled a 6 to wound, causing ID as per Moonfang's rules.

    Here's my question: Does Moonfang instakill models that it can not wound?

    I believe that since he could not put a wound on me, then the Instant Death could not apply. He took the other side, saying that the 6 caused Instant Death, removing the model, even though he could not wound me. We rolled off, and my Wraithlord ended up dead :'(. Like I said this is VERY situational, and I am just curious for our next game in case it comes up again.

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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    It might depend on the wording of Khans rule, but Instant Death does not mean automatic wound. A Powerfist may cause instant death on a target T4 and below, but they can still fail to wound. A S4 model, even if their attacks normally inflict instant death, still are incapable of wounding a T8 model. If Khan's ability says a roll of 6 "automatically" inflicts instant death, I might buy it. Depends on the wording.

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    Son of LO Heirodule's Avatar
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    I dont think the ID should come into play.

    The wording says that "Any roles to wound... on a 6 ...will cause instant death." From that i would be inclined to say he cannot wound in the firstplace, since even if a 6 is rolled, its not a wound, and you cant instant death something if you dont cause a wound.
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    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    The wording on P.94 Codex SM says that "Any rolls to wound on which K scores a six...yaddayadda". The rulebook on P.38 below the "To Wound Chart" says that "N on the chart has no effect" and that a target with the Toughness indicated "cannot be harmed by a hit of such puny strength". To my mind: in order that Moonfang's special rule is able to happen, Moonfang must have first been able to cause a wound otherwise how would it be able to inflict Instant Death?

    Also: P.26 BRB under "Instant Death", it says that it's after the model suffers an unsaved wound that the potential of I-D occurs. If Moonfang can't wound the Wraithlord in the first place, the WL can't suffer an unsaved wound, so would MF be able to cause I-D anyway?

    Having said all that: would Moonfang's rule possibly be considered to be similar to that of the Necron gauss weapons which can wound on a 6 regardless of Str v T?

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    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heirodule View Post
    I dont think the ID should come into play.

    The wording says that "Any roles to wound... on a 6 ...will cause instant death." From that i would be inclined to say he cannot wound in the firstplace, since even if a 6 is rolled, its not a wound, and you cant instant death something if you dont cause a wound.
    I second this.

    The rule says it causes ID on a roll of 6 regardless of toughness, but it doesn't say that it causes a wound regardless of toughness. As per the ID rules, you need to cause an unsaved wound before ID comes into effect. Since he can't wound in the first place he can't cause ID. Saying that he can is essentially giving him the rending rule for free (which is not the case).

    Edit: another way to think of it is like this; Say a Space Marine Character is hit by Lascannon and you roll a 1 to wound. Does he suffer Instant Death? The Lascannon hit will cause ID, but if it doesn't wound then no damage is done. Same situation here.
    Last edited by Bugs_n_Orks; June 27th, 2010 at 18:42.
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    Thanks for all your help guys. +rep for all!
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  8. #7
    Son of LO kevin vanrooyen's Avatar
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    Edit: Checked Marine Codex, the rules for Moonfang are...

    Any rolls to wound on which Kor'sarroscores a 6 will cause Instant Death, regardless of targets toughness
    The rule states regardless of toughness, and the argument against Kor'sarro is based on the wraithlords high toughness.

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    Last edited by kevin vanrooyen; June 28th, 2010 at 16:56.
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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin vanrooyen View Post
    The rule states regardless of toughness, and the argument against Kor'sarro is based on the wraithlords high toughness
    You're putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable! (Wow, that joke doesn't work nearly as well in type...)

    Any rolls to wound on which Kor'sarroscores a 6 will cause Instant Death, regardless of targets toughness
    It says it will cause Instant Death, but it does not necessarily say it causes an automatic wound. The way most of us are interpretting that clause, is that S4 Khan has the ability to inflict Instant Death regardless of not having a S double the T of a particular target. The Instant Death rules are still dependent on causing an unsaved wound in the first place-- a Lascannon or Powerfist don't automatically wound against a T4 model, they still have to roll and have the chance to fail to wound. Similarly, Khan at S4 is still incapable of inflicting a wound against a T8 model.

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    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    I was just looking at the Gauss weapons rule in the Necron Codex. It says
    Against troops, any roll to wound of a six automatically causes a wound regardless of Toughness.
    It then goes on to say that a target is still wounded even though the weapon
    could not normally hurt it because of its high Toughness...etc
    Moonfang's rules have very nearly the same wording as the first quote from the Necron Codex.

    I play Necrons. If I have a unit of Necron Warriors in range of a Wraithlord, I'm going to open fire on it because although I can't normally wound it (Str4 vs T8 ), I may still roll a 6 amongst all the To-Wound dice. I would guess that I'm also not the only person who would do this. So either all Necron players have been playing this wrong from the start, or we have been playing it right.

    So there is precedent for Kor'sarro's sword Moonfang being able to make "To Wound" rolls against something which it would not normally be able to wound, and benefit from the special rule of inflicting Instant Death (in Moonfang's case) if one of the dice comes up as a 6.

    E.
    Last edited by eiglepulper; June 29th, 2010 at 21:53.
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  11. #10
    Son of LO Heirodule's Avatar
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    Whilst they almost have the same rules, theres one important factor.

    Causing a wound regardless of toughness is not the same as inflicting instant death, regardless of toughness. To inflict instant death, you have to wound first. If you cant wound, the rule simply doesnt apply.

    Also i cant help thinking thats not the right way to read the rule either. Its saying Instant death is inflicted, even if you dont double toughness, rather than if you cant wound. At least the way i read it.
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