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Well I only have three games under my belt and only one of them have required me to get into close combat. My rulebook hasn't arrived and there fore I have no idea how close combat works, here are some of the questions that I have regarding close combat.
Q1.) When do we resolve close combat? I know charging and the type but when do I resolve the fighting after i've already charged, i've been doing it on my assault phase if I have a higher Initiative and on my opponent's if he has a higher initiative, i'm sure that's wrong.
Q2.) What is Sweeping Advance? I've heard of it but how do I apply it while playing.
Q3.) When do I consolidate? What are the circumstances for me to be able to consolidate and by how much?
Q4.) Who gets to allocate what model is removed? Me or my opponent? My opponent killed three of my berserkers and I offered him to pick what model to take off. He insisted it was within the rules for me to pick my own casualties. Now of course I don't mind that but I would really want to take out his brood lords first.
Q5.) When are frag grenades used? Do they count as assault weapons?
Q6.) I charged my friend's Tau with my berserkers and he said his defensive grenades took away the extra abilities for my furious charge. I thought it only took away the extra attack not that and the +1 str and int. Who's right?
Q7.)My friend's genestealers charged me while my models were in cover, can this happen?
Q8.) I charged my friend's warrior and he said that he got to hit first because he had a higher initiative. But I was charging... How does that work?
Q9.) My friends termegant unit attacked TWO of my berserker units, but he said it was fine because all his models were within 2" of each other. Can he do that?
Q10.) My berserkers are fearless and that means that they can't run away from close combat or after taking heavy fire, (no moral checks needed) i'm aware that this comes with a down side while in close combat. I've heard talks of me taking extra wounds, what happens in close combat when my berserkers are dreadfully out numbered but cannot run?
Any help on that is greatly appreciated .
Extra question -
Q. My friend's deathleaper deep strikes into play shoots my lord with his flesh hooks and teleports off the board in the end of his assault phase. He repeats this every single turn, with out rolling for scatter or anything and his death leaper just appears everywhere on the board, shoots and dissapears. I'm just thinking is he using this correctly? Because it seems to me that you can never touch the death leaper if this is so.Why did I resort to asking here.
I've spent too long searching google for appropriate answers to my questions and I havn't had any luck, the other forums I tried to ask have rules against answering questions on rules. So yeah.
For the questions that say my friend said "Such and such", "Well why didn't you check their codex?" Well I would have checked their codexs but they were very reluctant to show me any of them, and as such that is why I think I come out right in most of the questions above, but I have to be sure.
I would wait for my rule book but god knows when that thing will get here. "Impatient Much?" You say... I've been waiting for a month, and finally decided to go have a go at playing anyway.Did I bother looking around THIS forum for some answers?
Well no I havn't but I really don't have the time for this because of other distractions.
Again thanks in advance to anyone who answers
Last edited by -.-'; July 6th, 2010 at 17:52.
The vast majority of your questions can be answered by the rulebook. My suggestion would be to wait until your rulebook arrives, read through it a few times, and then come here if you need anything clarified. We can't just tell you how everything works; the rulebooks were created for a reason, and there are forum rules preventing us from just listing out everything for you!
I can tell you one or two things, but as lost nemesis says, we cant tell you basic rules like that.
What i can tell you is whoever is using that deathleaper is a collosal cheat. Its not even a confusing rule, get him to show you the codex, youll clearly find that deathleaper cannot disapear in the same turn it arrives, and it cannot do anything on the turn it disapears, at it leaves in the movement phase. So it would happen somthing like this
Turn 2 (this is minimum BTW, it could arrive later) - arrives, shoots, cannot assault and remains on table
Turn 3 - finishes movement 1" away from an enemy model, disapears end of movement phase. Cannot shoot or assault.
Turn 4 - re-appears, see step 2
He is right that is doesnt scatter however. But basically you're getting very badly conned. If he says otherwise FORCE himm to show you the book (also see below) and prove him wrong.
Also when you say
Well I would have checked their codexs but they were very reluctant to show me any of them
Your also being cheated. You have every right to make them prove anything they say. 9 times outa 10 this means they show you a rule from the rulebook, or their codex. Im 99% certain that not showing you their codex on request is illegal (especially if its a rules clarification), aswell as being terrible sportsmanship.
Last edited by Heirodule; July 6th, 2010 at 19:46.
Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature
Q6: Photon Grenades only remove bonus attacks, not USR attributes. You were right.
All the other questions can't really be answered because of Forum rules, as Lost Nemesis said. As for other players not being willing to show you their codex to let you see the rule or ability you're questioning: well, that's not good and certainly doesn't follow the tenets of 40k's Most Important Rule.
Last edited by eiglepulper; July 6th, 2010 at 20:15.
"Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"
The Assault phase is the third of three phases in a player turn. Any units who wish to make a charge can declare it, then move into combat using the process described in the rulebook. Units already locked in an assault resolve their attacks in Initiative order (disregarding cover, Banshees, etc). Both player's models get to attack; or rather, the other player's models get to strike back.
So, in my turn, I charge a unit of Guardsmen with my unit of Space Marines. I declare the charge, move my squad in position, then we resolve attacks: my Space Marines have a higher Initiative, so they attack first, rolling to hit and then rolling to wound etc, and then the Guard player rolls any saves; the failed ones don't get to retaliate. Since he's I3, he goes second (this is the same phase) and rolls his attack dice.
We're now locked in combat; until the combat ends, neither one of use can move or shoot and we can't be shot at, although other units can join the assault. During the Guard player's Assault phase, we repeat the process described above; the Space Marines are still attacking first (higher Initiative) and everyone gets to attack.A Sweeping Advance is a mechanic to represent how a unit whose morale breaks might be overrun and wiped out. If a unit fails its Morale test in close combat with an enemy and falls back, both units roll off as described in the main rulebook. If the retreating unit wins, they Fall Back successfully; if the enemy unit wins, they overrun and destroy the falling back unit.Q2.) What is Sweeping Advance? I've heard of it but how do I apply it while playing.
It happens at the end of the assault phase, after morale is worked out. It's in the rulebook; get your friend's copy for specifics, but that's the broad gist of it.Consolidation happens after you have won an Assault. If your opponents are destroyed or Falling Back, your unit can make a "consolidation" move in any direction. You can't use this to launch a new Assault.Q3.) When do I consolidate? What are the circumstances for me to be able to consolidate and by how much?Wound allocation is a tricky topic in 5th ed, but to answer your basic question, the player suffering the wounds - not the player inflicting them - allocates them, and has basically got free reign to do so as long as it follows the wound allocation rules. So, your friend was right: you would pick which models to lose. This is more of an advantage than the alternative. The alternative is that an enemy can strategically pick who to wound, meaning your valuable models cannot be protected and will always die first. This way, you can shield valuable models by hiding them in a squad.Q4.) Who gets to allocate what model is removed? Me or my opponent? My opponent killed three of my berserkers and I offered him to pick what model to take off. He insisted it was within the rules for me to pick my own casualties. Now of course I don't mind that but I would really want to take out his brood lords first.
Traditionally, being able to control one's own wound allocation is a very powerful ability reserved for a couple of special characters (the Vindicare assassin and Sergeant Telion come to mind).They have no combat effect. Frag grenades effect Initiative order, which I mentioned above. Normally, two units in an assault resolve their attacks according to their Initiative (if they have the same initiative, they go simultaneously). An exception to this is if a unit is assaulted while in cover; to represent having to stumble through rubble and such, if a unit assaults through Difficult Terrain, the assaulting unit's Initiative is reduced to 1, basically ensuring that they'll go last.Q5.) When are frag grenades used? Do they count as assault weapons?
What frag (or "assault") grenades do is negate this Initiative penalty, to represent the attacking unit hurling grenades into the cover before charging to force the enemy to keep his head down. So a unit armed with frag grenades doesn't suffer the normal Initiative penalty for attacking into close combat.Defensive grenades (the other type of grenade) remove the normal bonus attack for charging. They do not affect the operation of a universal special rule like Furious Charge. You still get the extra strength and initiative for charging, because you still are charging, you're just not getting the bonus attacks.Q6.) I charged my friend's Tau with my berserkers and he said his defensive grenades took away the extra abilities for my furious charge. I thought it only took away the extra attack not that and the +1 str and int. Who's right?Yes, subject to the mechanics I mentioned above. In this case, provided the genestealers aren't armed with any special equipment, their Initiative would be reduced to 1 and your models would strike first. They would also have to roll a Difficult Terrain test when assaulting through the cover; if the distance isn't far enough, they can't launch the assault.Q7.)My friend's genestealers charged me while my models were in cover, can this happen?
Basically, being in cover doesn't make you immune to being charged by a dedicated assault unit, but it gives you a couple of advantages.Regardless of who is launching the assault, attacks are resolved in Initiative order. So if an initiative 3 unit, like a Guardsman, assaulted some Space Marines (I4) the Space Marines would attack first. It's important to note that Furious Charge comes into account here, so if the Guardsman was instead being assaulted by an Ork (which is normally I2, but has Furious Charge and therefore fights at I3) the Ork would be at I3 and they would strike simultaneously. If the Guardsman assaulted the Ork, it would not get the Furious Charge benefits and the Guardsman would strike first.Q8.) I charged my friend's warrior and he said that he got to hit first because he had a higher initiative. But I was charging... How does that work?Assault movement rules are hard to explain and you haven't given enough detail here. Basically, you declare and launch and assault against one unit, and then your movement is restricted in various ways so that you have to move so-and-so many models into contact with the assaulted unit. What I think you're talking about here is your friend launching one assault in two different directions, which is a no-no - you can assault two units, but it's not a matter of declaring an assault against one and then moving some models in the other direction so that the second unit is engaged.Q9.) My friends termegant unit attacked TWO of my berserker units, but he said it was fine because all his models were within 2" of each other. Can he do that?
I really can't explain it adequately here, so all I can recommend is that you get your hands on the rulebook and read the Assault section thoroughly. The mechanics can be confusing.Fearless is a USR that means you automatically pass any morale checks you take. This means that you are subject to No Retreat!, which is an interesting mechanic new to 5th edition that is designed to tone down Fearless units. It can be a disadvantage, meaning that Fearless isn't always desirable.Q10.) My berserkers are fearless and that means that they can't run away from close combat or after taking heavy fire, (no moral checks needed) i'm aware that this comes with a down side while in close combat. I've heard talks of me taking extra wounds, what happens in close combat when my berserkers are dreadfully out numbered but cannot run?
What happens is tied to the system for making Morale checks at the end of an assault. Basically, at the end of an assault, both sides tally up the number of wounds they've inflicted that phase. The one with more wounds inflicted has "won" the assault. They have to take a Morale check, and if they fail they Fall Back (and may be destroyed in a Sweeping Advance, as described above.)
Since your units are Fearless, they don't take the Morale check. If they "lose" an assault, they tally the difference between the number of wounds they inflicted and the number the other side inflicted. You then take a number of extra wounds equal to the number you've lost by, to represent your unit being beaten and dragged down despite their unassailable courage. Say your berserkers inflict 4 wounds, and his tyranids inflict 7, so you've lost by 3 wounds. You then take three extra wounds - no rolling to hit or to wound; it's basically as if the other side had inflicted some extra wounds.
You can take armour and invulnerable saves as normal, even if the other side's attacks would normally ignore armour.No, you're being cheated. The Deathleaper can't move off the board during the assault phase, he has to do it at the end of the movement phase, if I remember correctly. Since movement happens before shooting or assaulting, he can't attack and then retreat in the manner you're describing. That would make him invincible.Extra question -
Q. My friend's deathleaper deep strikes into play shoots my lord with his flesh hooks and teleports off the board in the end of his assault phase. He repeats this every single turn, with out rolling for scatter or anything and his death leaper just appears everywhere on the board, shoots and dissapears. I'm just thinking is he using this correctly? Because it seems to me that you can never touch the death leaper if this is so.
You and your friends don't seem to have a firm grasp on how the rules work, so I'd recommend waiting until you have a copy of the rules and then keeping it on hand for reference during a game. Learning the rules can be a difficult and argumentative process, so try and make sure you don't get into shouting matches like I did when I started playing. Always assume you're wrong until you've checked the rulebook, and always check the rulebook if you think you're wrong.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
Thanks guys, some more than others of course, though I don't blame anyone for keeping within rules. Special thanks to Poodle, I hope I havn't unintentionally forced you to break some of the forum rules. As I said, me and my friends only have about three games each under our belts, all of which without a rule book and with dodgy information from the internet. This really cleared it out for me, since close combat was the only real thing I didn't understand.
I'll definately get this printed out to show the Tyranid player, I knew the deathleaper wouldn't be so... Powerful.
Thanks again, for the help or the attempt at helping, though again I don't blame anyone for not wanting to break the rules.
I will read through the rule book if and when it gets here.
Last edited by -.-'; July 7th, 2010 at 16:34.