Allocating Telion's Shooting Wounds - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    UnderWater Ninja-Tiger .. Xpyre35's Avatar
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    Allocating Telion's Shooting Wounds

    My question is regarding when the Telion owner, has to allocate Telion's wounds. Is is before the Target unit's owner allocates or after?

    Scenario:
    Telion and scouts fire upon an IG unit. This unit currently consists of 1 Sgt. 1 Heavy Weapons team 1 special weapon (melta) and 3 guardsmen.

    Telion's unit wounds 6, and Telion himself wounds 1.

    Allocation 1:
    The IG player allocates wounds. 1 on the Sgt. 1 on the Heavy Weapons crew 1 on the special and 3 to the group of guardsmen. Then Telion's owner allocates the extra wound to the Heavy Weapon crew. Causing Saves to be taken as: 1 for the SGT, 2 for the Heavy Weapon Crew, 1 on the Melta, 3 on the guardsmen.

    Allocation 2:
    Telion's owner allocates wounds first. 1 on the Heavy Weapons team. IG Player allocates 1 on the Sgt. 1 special, 1 on each of the guardsmen with the last one going into the guardsmen group. Possibly leaving the Heavy Weapons team alive regardless of saves.

    I read recently in a post (1 year old) that Telion's owner can wait for the IG player to allocate, then place his wound. Is there a rule, a precedent or anything that suggests a correct solution, other than obviously speaking with your opponent beforehand. My opponents typically think Telion is a little god like to begin with, so often I am asked to place his wound first, which really negates the ability in a way.


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  3. #2
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    I think that the player owning Telion does not have to follow the rules for allocating wounding hits as per the normal method - ie one per model before a second can be allocated to individual models - whereas the enemy unit owner does. So
    Allocation 2:
    Telion's owner allocates wounds first. 1 on the Heavy Weapons team. IG Player allocates 1 on the Sgt. 1 special, 1 on each of the guardsmen with the last one going into the guardsmen group. Possibly leaving the Heavy Weapons team alive regardless of saves.
    would IMHO be an illegal allocation by the IG player, as he has not allocated one of the 6 wounds which he must spread among his models to the Heavy Weapons team, which consists of two models. His allocation needs to be Sgt x1, Guardsmen x3, Special x1 and HWT x1, with Telion already having allocated his single wounding roll to the HWT member. That way all 7 wounding hits have been distributed according to the rules, both BRB and Codex SM "Telion".

    One thing also occurred to me while reading the rules for Telion: he can shoot twice with his bolter, and the owning player chooses which model takes the hit/hits. So I assume that if both shots wound, then both wounds can be allocated to the same model without recourse to the normal rules for allocating wounds?

    E.
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  4. #3
    UnderWater Ninja-Tiger .. Xpyre35's Avatar
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    E. Yes, if both of Telion's shots wound they can be placed on the same model.

    In regards to the allocation, since there is a wound in each group, (counting Telion's) then the extra wound can be placed in any group. The issue still revolves around the timing, as allocations are cumulative. Its not two sets of shooting. so since I had a wound on the Heavy team, that group is then covered unless I wrap enough wounds across all models again, which is extremely rare from a sniper scout squad firing phase.

  5. #4
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    I understood that a heavy weps team has two members, both of whom are able to be wounded. That's why I said that the placing of the final wound by the IG player onto the three Guardsmen appears to be wrong. There effectively was another model in the unit which had not been allocated a wound, and therefore no other model can be allocated a second wound until that remaining model receives its first one. To my understanding of your explanation in "Allocation 2", that's what I believe the IG player did wrong. However....

    IIRC you have to cause two unsaved wounds on a Heavy Weps team in order to neutralise the weapon. Only one model is required to fire the main weapon; the other can fire his lasgun. That equates to "two" shots (let's ignore what the heavy wep is for simplicity's sake!), thus 2 models have to be involved. Therefore there *have* to be two wounds allocated to the HWT, or is that not how it works?

    E.
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  6. #5
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    A heavy weapons team counts as a single model for all purposes except transport capacity [page 29, Codex: Imperial Guard], so an infantry squad with a heavy weapon has 9 models and 10 wounds. Just to clarify this. The heavy weapons team can only fire the heavy weapon, by the way, no lasguns.

    The rules on Telion's wound allocation aren't very well-defined. The order of allocation is not fixed (Telion's wounding hits first, then the remaining ones, or the other way around), and it is unclear whether Telion's wounding hits are subject to the normal restrictions (for example that every model in the target unit must be allocated one hit before any model can be allocated a second one). While some might argue that there is no evidence that the restrictions are lifted for Telion's player, the RAW do not even contain any restrictions for Telion's player in the first place because wound allocation rules only refer to how the "controlling player" of the target unit [page 25, big rulebook] must allocate wounding hits.

    This is an issue GW must address in the FAQ, I can not see why they had not done so.
    Since the RAW just say that Telion's player may allocate (without saying how) Telion's wounding hits [page 88, Codex: Space Marines], and since the rulebook only restricts the player controlling the target unit in his wound allocation [page 25, big rulebook], my gaming group rules that Telion can allocate his wounding hits however he likes (e.g. two wounding hits onto the same model, or allocate a second wound to a model without every other model in the unit having received their first one, etc). In regards to the order we have the target unit's player allocate the remaining wounding hits first, and then Telion's player allocate Telion's wounding hits before saving throws are rolled. This seems the most fair to us.

    Good luck!

  7. #6
    jy2
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    I would say Allocation #1 is how it should be done. Telion's wound allocation is an exception to normal wound allocation. It does not follow normal rules for wound allocation as technically, you can even put his wounds on a model that is already killed by normal wound allocation. In this case, it would make more sense to apply standard practices before the exceptions.
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    I personally agree with Allocation #1. If you go with Allocation #2 there is almost no reason to ever use Telion's Eye of Vengence ability outside of targeting IC's. Of note is the simple rule that if in a discussion beforehand your opponent and you can't come to a consensus you can call for a roll off to keep the game moving. But again, to preserve the spirit of the rule I would go with Allocation #2.

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    UnderWater Ninja-Tiger .. Xpyre35's Avatar
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    ThanX guys. Having the target owner place all 'normal wounds first" then apply Telion's. ITs truly what makes the ability even viable. It is how I'd like to play it, I'll use the additional reasons here, and see if my group will be convinced. I'm the only one who uses him, and my scouts draw a lot of fire, and normally and outlflank group or deep strikers to neutralize him within round 2.

  10. #9
    Venerable Member Takeda's Avatar
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    I agree with allocation #2. The player controlling Telion may allocate the wounds he inflicted (and it has to be a legal allocation), while the opposing player allocates the other wounds.

    Considering that a full squad of sniper scouts will statistically only inflict 2, maybe 3 wounds, even if Telion wounds on both of his shots, that usually still means not enough wounds to allocate 2 to any one model anyways.

    So Telion's ability is in fact useful in that it forces the target unit to have to take saves on, say, a sergeant and a special weapon, rather than allocating all 5 wounds to the rest of the squad and skip those models altogether as in a normal allocation.

    The real benefit, however, comes when one (or both) of Telion's shots happen to rend.

    There's my 2 cents. I have played against SM armies fielding Telion quite often, and this is what, over time, our interpretation for the rule has developed into.

    EDIT: to answer the thread's question, in the scenario with the IG squad (which has inflicted enough total wounds to start allocating second wounds to models), the Telion player can allocate his wound to any model. However, all the other wounds are to be allocated by the controlling player. Essentially, in this scenario, it is still the controlling player that decides which model takes 2 saves.

    If Telion had inflicted 2 wounds, then the Telion player may then allocate both to the same model, but only if there were enough total wounds inflicted for the allocation to start going to second wounds. As I mentioned before, the allocation has to be legal.

    As for how Telion's rule makes any difference: In that scenario, Telion's special rule made the difference of allowing the Telion player to choose who in the squad takes 2 saves. All the rest is completely up to the controlling player.
    If you're shooting at an enemy that had 5+ saves, then you can have Telion's AP5 wound allocated to the sergeant or something, while the AP6 sniper rifles allow the rest of the squad 5+ saves.
    As mentioned earlier, if Telion's shot rends, then you're in a good position of choosing the allocation of that shot.
    Now think about this... there's a squad of (eg space marines) with 3 left. One of them is the sergeant or special character. Telion causes 2 non-rending wounds, while one sniper causes a rending wound. The Telion player allocates both his wounds to the 2 normal guys. The special character now HAS to take the rending hit and die, due to the rules of allocation.

    Anyways, these are just scenarios where Telion's rule makes a difference. In the specific scenario of IG in this thread, the rule pretty much does nothing, as it is still the controlling player that chooses which model takes 2 saves.
    Last edited by Takeda; August 2nd, 2010 at 05:27.

  11. #10
    UnderWater Ninja-Tiger .. Xpyre35's Avatar
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    Takeda its not often I disagree with you. Everyone in our group has played it as follows, If Telion is shooting at a mob of 29 boys led by a Nob, scores 2 rending hits. Telion's owner is well within his right to assign both wounds to the Nob. Telion's rules for placement of wounds overrides, the rule for wound allocation.

    edit: I have reread Telion's rule, its pretty simplistic and states that the owning player may allocate wounds. I see your point Takeda, but I see that it can either just replace the "who allocates?" part of the rule versus replacing the entire "wound allocation" It seems the majority have assumed replaces wound allocation. Allowing the Telion owner to just follow the normal rules, seems a bit against RAI. However, I'm torn. And will continue to look it over.

    The question is the order of wound allocation, does Telion's wounds get allocated then the opponents. Or does the opponent allocate all other wounds, then Telion's sniping wounds get set? I can see how it would benefit in either direction based on your examples, but I still can't figure out who allocates first.
    Last edited by Xpyre35; August 2nd, 2010 at 18:22.

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