Question about blast templates and cover saves - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18
  1. #1
    Member mazik765's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    51
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    6 (x1)

    Question about blast templates and cover saves

    Let's say if someone targets my gretchin units with a blast template but it scatters to the boyz unit behind them. Do they get a cover save on this? Does this apply at any time if a template scatters behind cover?


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Senior Member SkyDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    604
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputation
    74 (x2)

    They can get a cover save if they're actuley in cover but ordanance blasts don't give line of sight cover.

    You still can't target something that's out of sight but if it scatters onto an obscured unit it hits normaly.

  4. #3
    Member mazik765's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    51
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    6 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyDog View Post
    They can get a cover save if they're actuley in cover but ordanance blasts don't give line of sight cover.

    You still can't target something that's out of sight but if it scatters onto an obscured unit it hits normaly.
    Just to clarify, what do you mean by hits normally? I know you can't target them but if it scatters behind cover do they get the cover save or does it hit as if they were not behind cover? (assuming it is not ordanance of course)

  5. #4
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,841
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    596 (x8)

    The main point here is: is the blast marker being fired by a standard LOS-type weapon or is it designated as a Barrage weapon? This is very important, as cover is determined in a different way if the weapon is a barrage type.

    In the OP's question, the weapon type wasn't made clear so we'll go through it for both types.

    Rocket Launcher, Battle Cannon, Railgun submunition shell, plasma cannon: all of these weapons use one or other of the blast markers, and have the word 'blast' or 'large blast' in their Type column. They all require line of sight to the target. Cover is determined by drawing a line from the firing model to the target. If the line crosses anything which allows a cover save, then it is permitted.

    Demolisher Cannon, Whirlwind multiple missile launcher, Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Mortars: these are all Barrage Weapons, which also use both sizes of blast markers and have the word 'barrage' in their Type column. P.32 BRB tells us that all barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for blast weapons but have specific exceptions, the main one which we're interested in here being how to determine if an enemy unit is allowed a cover save or not.

    In this case the cover save is determined from the centre of the blast marker, not from the firing model's firepoint.

    To return to the OP's questions:
    Q1: Assuming that it was a standard blast weapon shooting at his Gretchin, then yes, the Boyz unit would get a cover save because the Gretchin are between them and the firer. If it was a barrage weapon whose blast marker landed on the Boyz, then cover is determined by following the rule on P.32.
    Q2: It depends totally on what type of weapon is firing the blast marker.

    It is possible to target something which is out of sight if you're using a barrage weapon (P.32 BRB 4th bullet point under 'Barrage'), just as it is possible to scatter out of sight and beyond the range of the firing weapon. Determining cover is done exactly the same way, bearing in mind the weapon Type.

    E.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  6. #5
    Venerable Member Takeda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    314
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    120 (x2)

    Quote Originally Posted by eiglepulper View Post
    Demolisher Cannon, Whirlwind multiple missile launcher, Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Mortars: these are all Barrage Weapons, which also use both sizes of blast markers and have the word 'barrage' in their Type column. P.32 BRB tells us that all barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for blast weapons but have specific exceptions, the main one which we're interested in here being how to determine if an enemy unit is allowed a cover save or not
    Not exactly. This explanation on Barrage Weapons is all true. However, the noted examples do not all apply. The demolisher cannon, for example, is an Ordnance weapon, but not a Barrage weapon. Weapons can have either one of these properties, or both. Direction of the firer is still applied when determining cover saves in this case. For the Airbursting Fragmentation Grenades, it is neither ordnance nor barrage - however, it has a special rule that never allows cover saves, and so direction of firer and centre of blast both do not matter in any case.

    For the original question, assuming it is not a barrage/indirect-fire weapon (but including any other blast weapon, including ordnance), you determine cover saves by the direction of the firing unit to the squad that is acutally hit. This includes elevation. If it is a turret mounted weapon that is high enough off the ground, or a unit on a hill or upper floor, the ork boyz probably won't get a cover save. To get a cover save, the gretchin have to obscure the actualy line of fire to the ork boyz (i.e. usually only if the gun shooting at them is at ground level).

  7. #6
    Senior Member SkyDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Age
    32
    Posts
    604
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputation
    74 (x2)

    Assuming that it was a standard blast weapon shooting at his Gretchin, then yes, the Boyz unit would get a cover save because the Gretchin are between them and the firer.
    Are you shure about that? Pg30 "it is possible for a scattering shot to land beyond the weapons range and line of sight, representing the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random chance. In these cases hits are worked out as normal and can hit units out of range and sight." I've always taken this to mean LoS cover wasn't an issue for for something that scatters out of line of sight. Am I wrong?

    Just to clarify, what do you mean by hits normally? I know you can't target them but if it scatters behind cover do they get the cover save or does it hit as if they were not behind cover?
    Well.... I'm not shure anymore. If they are in a peice of terrain that grants cover, then yes. If they're out in the open and the only cover they could get is from obscured line of sight.... I thought they didn't get cover but but I could be wrong. Sniper puss has been at this longer than me, I'll wait to hear what he says.

    (all this is me assuming you're talking about a standard blast weapon. If this is about a barrage weapon then that's different.)
    Last edited by SkyDog; September 22nd, 2010 at 21:49.

  8. #7
    Member mazik765's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    51
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Reputation
    6 (x1)

    To clear up, yes I'm talking about standard LOS blast weapons, not ordanance or barrage. Sorry for the confusion!

  9. #8
    Son of LO psichotykwyrm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Panama City Beach, Florida
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,638
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    443 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by mazik765 View Post
    To clear up, yes I'm talking about standard LOS blast weapons, not ordanance or barrage. Sorry for the confusion!
    Then yes, cover is determined by area terrain or LOS from the firer.

    @Skydog:
    The part you quoted does not say that we ignore LOS. It does say that a scattered shot can possibly land outside LOS. In fact, it says "work out as normal". Therefore we use the LOS-cover rules because we are not told to do otherwise, and that would be 'as normal'.

    @E:
    The Demolisher Cannon is not a Barrage weapon. At least one marine codex has a misprint on the profile, which is corrected in FAQ.
    "It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous."
    ---Ogvai Ogvai Helmshrot, Jarl of Tra, VI Legion Astartes

  10. #9
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,841
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    596 (x8)

    Yeah, that's where I read the barrage bit: back of the SM Codex. I thought there was something odd about it, but never thought to double check the FAQ.

    Sorry for the confusion, guys.

    E.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  11. #10
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Age
    57
    Posts
    2,841
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    596 (x8)

    Apologies to the Mods; unintentional double posting. I really must learn to avoid the Submit button until I'm actually finished my reply! D'oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeda View Post
    . For the Airbursting Fragmentation Grenades, it is neither ordnance nor barrage - however, it has a special rule that never allows cover saves, and so direction of firer and centre of blast both do not matter in any case.
    Sorry, but I'm afraid the AFP is indeed a Barrage weapon. Its range is given as GXX". P.32 BRB 2nd paragraph under 'Barrage' says that in older Codex books barrage weapons were identified by having a "G" (guess) before their range, and that this is the same as having the word 'Barrage' under their Type.

    You're right though that it is not an Ordnance weapon; it just uses the large blast marker, but otherwise gets all the benefits of being a barrage weapon. This includes the element of determining cover from the centre hole of the marker rather than from the direction of fire.

    SkyDog:
    Sniper puss has been at this longer than me, I'll wait to hear what he says.
    Heh heh! Thanks, bro. Let's hope *I* get it right!!

    E.
    Last edited by eiglepulper; September 23rd, 2010 at 00:40.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts