LoS to vehicle parts...what counts? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    149 (x3)

    LoS to vehicle parts...what counts?

    A couple of specific questions regarding targeting vehicles.
    rulebook p60 states that a unit must be able to see the vehicle's hull or turret, ignoring antennas, banner poles, etc.

    So would the following count as hull/turret?

    1. Wave Serpent field aerials (the pointy bits that stick out from the hull) - This seems like a glaring NO to me. But some have argued they are part of the hull, though one could easily model it without those parts.

    2. Whirlwind Missile launcher - Seems like a turret to me, not 'missile barrels' Even with the original whirlwind (which I have).

    3. Sisters Of Battle Exorcist 'organ pipes' - not at all sure here. The pipes could be argued as 'barrels' in which case this would be a clear advantage over using a converted whirlwind turret.

    4. Dark Eldar Ram - Seems like part of the hull to me, same as a Vindicator's Shield or Leman Russ's dozer blade.

    At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!

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  3. #2
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    1. It is a glaring NO. The rulebook clearly quotes "antennae" as being part of a vehicle which is ignored for LOS/targetting purposes.

    2. The description of the Whirlwind in the 1999 SM Codex says "turret-mounted multiple missile launcher". Also, the BRB on P.59 says that "turret-mounted weapons can usually rotate 360° together with the entire turret unless the design of the model prevents this". I don't think anyone can argue that a Whirlwind is able to fire in a complete circle, so it must be a turret mount.

    3. I would agree with you. These pipes are fixed in place on a non-turning base, so I would feel a bit aggrieved if someone said that they could use them to be able to target my Exorcist.

    4. A Vindicator's Siege Shield isn't really part of the *hull*; it's a big plate sitting in front of the glacis which IS part of the hull (it's also an optional piece of vehicle wargear too). You can't really have two front hulls! Ditto the dozer blade, and whenever I'm measuring to an opponent's vehicle's front end with one of these things attached I always measure to the glacis. However, I don't know what to say about the DE Raider's ram.



    E.
    Last edited by eiglepulper; November 8th, 2010 at 20:47.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  4. #3
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Line of sight with vehicles is best described with the diagram on page 3 and 69, the shaded areas are considered the 'hull' and the non shaded areas are superfluous to the vehicle's operational status.

    That is to say the crew can not be targetted, niether can the Ram, the converted engine (Orks just love this one!) or the weapons. Same with the troops, you may not target their base (same diagrram).

    I know that this refers to measuring distances but that diagram is rather good at clearing this up and the same convention is used on page 12 with coherency with the shaded area counting and not the non shaded area, and pages 17,23, 28, 29, 30, 32, 35, etc etc.

    The theme in the entire book is clear, shaded areas are valid, clear areas are not.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  5. #4
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    149 (x3)

    I never read the small print. Figured the shading was for looks! Thanks, that cleared it up a bit!
    At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!

  6. #5
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    Rep for pointing that shading bit out, Wicky.

    E.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  7. #6
    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    430 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by eiglepulper View Post
    3. I would agree with you. These pipes are fixed in place on a non-turning base, so I would feel a bit aggrieved if someone said that they could use them to be able to target my Exorcist.
    The exorcist is an unfriendly one since strictly speaking the launch tubes are non-targetable barrels with a full 360 degree field of fire from the highest point.

    A suitably sized obsticle (such as a repressor tank) can block all LoS to the exorcist's hull while the exorcist itself maintains a totally unobstructed field of view.

    (the exact extent of this depends on how much of the forward crew compartment you treat as 'hull')

  8. #7
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    I've just read through the Witch Hunters FAQ:
    Q. What is the arc-of-sight of the Immolator and
    Exorcists’ main weapons?
    A. Consider the main weapons on both as turret
    mounted.
    The Exorcist's main weapon is turret-mounted, so does that mean that you're able to target the Exorcist if you can see the barrels? That could cause a lot of problems for hiding that vehicle.

    E.
    "Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"

  9. #8
    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    430 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by eiglepulper View Post
    The Exorcist's main weapon is turret-mounted, so does that mean that you're able to target the Exorcist if you can see the barrels? That could cause a lot of problems for hiding that vehicle.
    You can't draw LoS to gun barrels - doesn't matter if they are on a turret or not.

    But it's an odd model and as I mentioned having tall vertical barrels with a panoramic view from their highest point is a pretty significant 'uninended' benefit of true LoS rules

  10. #9
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    149 (x3)

    Agreed. The turret mount only specifies fire arc. If it meant fire arc AND LoS, they you could claim LoS to a Leman Russ's barrel. Which you, of course can't.
    It does seem an unintended advantage for the exorcist! Too bad I'm converting whirlwinds...
    Although I certainly wouldn't pick up the exorcist kit solely due to that 'advantage' of the barrels.
    At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!

  11. #10
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by JMichael View Post
    4. Dark Eldar Ram - Seems like part of the hull to me, same as a Vindicator's Shield or Leman Russ's dozer blade.
    Let me answer this question with a question, "If the ram was not modelled on the vehicle would it be illegal?"
    (You now have 15 seconds to ponder this before I answer for you, just kidding here mate!)

    Since the ram has no rules for it and is a modelling option then the answer would be 'No.'
    It is not part of the models hull but merely an 'ornament' or decoration to be ignored in game (but highly prized in static judging!)

    And the 'shaded picture' theory backs up this assesment rather well.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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