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  1. #1
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    188 (x4)

    Shattershard/characteristic test questions

    When a model takes a characteristic test do you use it's base value or do you include modifiers? Specifically for the new DE Shattershard weapon (it's a flamer template that causes all models hit to pass a T test or be removed from play) firing at SM bikes, would they fail on a 5+(base T) or 6+(modified T)? I'm inclined to think that you use the modified Toughness since it doesn't say to use base, and there's no exception like there is for ID in the 'Additional Protection' rule for bikes, but maybe I missed something in one of the FAQs.

    Also the shattershard's rules say 'Any non-vehicle model hit by the Shattershard must take a Toughness test. If they fail Blah Blah Blah...'. Does this mean that it can be used to snipe characters/sergeants/special weapons/specific models out of a squad? From the wording, I would say yes as there are no wounds to allocate and the wording says fairly specifically that the models hit take the tests, but again maybe I've missed something.

    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

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  3. #2
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    always use the non bracketed T value

    as the bracket is only used for wounds cuased where as the basic is used for ID and tests.

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    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs_n_Orks View Post
    Does this mean that it can be used to snipe characters/sergeants/special weapons/specific models out of a squad?
    The wording doesn't seem much different to the wording of all template weapons "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit, p29"

    Ultimately hits are allocated by the other player - you can cover the models at the front but 'hit' the models at the back, just as with any other template. If it was a 'sniping' weapon it would read 'models under the template must...etc'

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    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.T. View Post
    The wording doesn't seem much different to the wording of all template weapons "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit, p29"

    Ultimately hits are allocated by the other player - you can cover the models at the front but 'hit' the models at the back, just as with any other template. If it was a 'sniping' weapon it would read 'models under the template must...etc'
    Hits are never allocated to anything as far as I can tell, only wounds are allocated. So even in the case of normal flamers, the models in the front are the ones who are actually hit since they are under the template, but wounds caused by those hits can be allocated to models in the back.

    The mechanic for this seems more like JotWW only it uses a template instead of line to determine who is hit.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

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    in the case of units where T is the same even with IC's attached you would just roll X=Y tests and remove the appropriate number of models where X is the number of hits and Y is the number of avlible models that can be hit

    E.G. SM tactical Squad Flamer Misslile Launcher

    you hit 3 times now you want to hit the ML and flamer but as the whole squad has the Same T value he rolls 3 tests and just removes the Dead = to failed tests.

    same example but this time half the squad is behind a building and you can ONLY see the ML flamer and 2 normal marines 3 hits again 3 tests taken this time however after two normal marines die either the ML or Flamer MUST be removed as it would not be possible to hit the other members of the squad due to LoS and this is not a blast template that can scatter out of LoS.


    Mixed T value units T test taken on the Majority T value that can Be hit again use LoS to determine what can be hit and what can not 40k also use's true LoS now so if you can only see the sexy IC or Special weapons you can ONLY hit them and they have to test.


    in the case of weapons though it might be argued that as that model dies some one else in the unit picks up the weapon.

    in the case of Unit champions (vet sarg etc etc...) and IC's well you cant exactly step and fill his shoes so to speak so yeah you can snipe them with very carefull positioning to use LoS to your advantage. More of a Tourenement usage i would say rather than friendly games unless your playing competative friendly

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    Senior Member SkyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs_n_Orks View Post
    SM bikes, would they fail on a 5+(base T) or 6+(modified T)?
    The base T is left in the profile for the purposes of working out instant death. Everything else is worked out with the modafied T.

    A normal spacemarine is T4, a weapon of S8 or higher will cause instant death. A bike marine has (T5) but will still suffer instant death from a S8 weapon.

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    Senior Member SkyDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draghkar View Post
    Mixed T value units T test taken on the Majority T value that can Be hit again use LoS to determine what can be hit and what can not 40k also use's true LoS now so if you can only see the sexy IC or Special weapons you can ONLY hit them and they have to test.
    No. Unless you've got a sniper with a special rule you can't choose your target. If only one model in the unit is in LoS that just means that unit gets a cover save. It doesn't matter if you can only see one model in the unit, the controling player can allocate the wound to any model in the unit. The only way to pick off an IC is if you get in base to base contact in CC, even then it only works on IC's, you can't do it with the sargent with the power fist of the special weapon guy.

    More of a Tourenement usage i would say rather than friendly games unless your playing competative friendly
    If you tried that at a tourenement you'd get laughed at.

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    yes that would be true under normal cercumstanes but the OP was about characteristic tests and the speficic model hit which must be in LoS.

    as Wounds are allocated after hits but you can still only hit what you can see

    Unit in cover only one model can be seen by two enemy units the owning player removes this model with the 1st wound cuased the extra wounds from first set of shooting carry over as the model than could be seen could be hit multipul times how ever the second unit can now no longer shoot them as they can not hit anything as they have no LoS.

    now i've been at this hobby for 22 years and i read and re-read and re-re-read the rule book as if its my bible and im a religous fanaitc so that i can find all the little loop holes while i admit i have been distracted by moving home and a new bourne in the house i still get in two games a week also admitedly one of these is WFB at the moement im working out tactics for Vampires in 8th.


    as the weapon in question does not cuase a wound but on a HIT cuases a T test only models that can be hit can take them but this is how i would play it and so would most of my GC two of which go to GT's as often as they can but to be fair i couldnt say if they would agree with me here as i havent played against them for some months now.

    for tournies check it with the organizers to be sure that way you can avoid embassing moments in game just like with any other Doubiusly written rule.

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    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    430 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs_n_Orks View Post
    Hits are never allocated to anything as far as I can tell, only wounds are allocated.
    After looking again I probably agree, GW in another poorly written bypass to their own core rules.

  11. #10
    Senior Member SkyDog's Avatar
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    Unit in cover only one model can be seen by two enemy units the owning player removes this model with the 1st wound cuased the extra wounds from first set of shooting carry over as the model than could be seen could be hit multipul times how ever the second unit can now no longer shoot them as they can not hit anything as they have no LoS
    All shooting takes place at the same time, for game play purposes we work out one unit at a time but the in game perspective is they all shoot at once. If both units had LoS at the beginning of the shooting phase then both units can shoot.

    as the weapon in question does not cuase a wound but on a HIT cuases a T test only models that can be hit can take them
    As far as I knew you could allocate tests and saves to any model in the unit. (excluding special rules ect) I've never heard anything like this before. Can you give me a rule or something?

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