Can IC's joined with a scoring unit hold objectives - Page 2 - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #11
    Son of LO psichotykwyrm's Avatar
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    443 (x8)

    Except that you're not measuring to the IC only.

    You measure range to the UNIT. The unit is still a scoring unit.

    Unless you can point out a rule that says IC's change this when they join units...

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  3. #12
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    580 (x8)

    How about this: Troops mounted in a transport can control objectives. Where do we measure to? Ans: The vehicle's hull.

    A transport vehicle - just like an IC - is not a scoring unit. However, it can HELP the scoring unit to get within the required distance of an objective. The troops compartment of a Devilfish or a Wave Serpent is at the back, yet you can legitimately measure distance to the objective from the front edge of the transport in order to hold/capture/contest the objective. The vehicle becomes part of the unit.

    We also have the small sentence on P.49 BRB under "ICs & Assaults", second paragraph:
    ....as it is part of the unit.
    We already know that the IC has to move with the unit to retain unit coherency, he has to shoot at the same target as the unit and he has to assault when the unit assaults. The quoted sentence says why. Now if it is part of the unit for all the other relevant rules, why would it suddenly cease to be a member of the unit when it comes down to deciding whether that unit is within the required distance in order to be able to hold/whatever an Objective?

    Just as the transport vehicle which is non-scoring does not alter the fact that the troops inside can still hold an objective, so an IC joining the unit doesn't make it un-scoring. If however all the scoring unit models were killed, then the IC obviously couldn't hold it but could still contest it.

    Just my two cents.

    E.
    Last edited by eiglepulper; February 22nd, 2011 at 12:59.
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  4. #13
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Going back to the original question, can the IC grab the objective?
    Well ...... he doesn't and never will, it is the 'unit' that does, so all this is kind of moot.

    The real question here is can the combined 'unit' still be classed as troops?

    Now if the IC was not the one claiming the valid distance to the objective could that unit still be scoring? Of course it would, it would still be classed as a unit of 'troops' and yet when we jiggle the contents of that unit around it breaks that classification?

    We have to look at the situation as a whole to appreciate this one and adding an IC does not reclassify the unit.
    It remains a 'unit' of troops regardless of how its configured on the table.

    Cheers.

    P.S. Actually post 4 covered all of this anyway!
    Last edited by Wicky; February 22nd, 2011 at 21:43.
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  5. #14
    LO Zealot Mr. Biscuits's Avatar
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    192 (x4)

    Rulebook p.90
    An army's scoring units are units that come from its Troops allowance.
    I'm sorry guys, but this is the clause that swings it for me. Although I can see an IC joining the unit and becoming part of the Troops UNIT the rulebook states that it must be a unit from the troops ALLOWANCE. IMO this means that if you pay for a unit in HQ, isn't and never will be scoring, regardless of what you attatch it to.

    As for those of you saying that it's like a transport vehicle, I would strongly urge you to consider the following. In this thread, for ICs, the Independant Character is attatched to the unit, a transport vehicle never is. A Rhino will never need to maintain coherency with a Tactical Squad, wounds allocated to Terminators can never become damage results on a Land Raider, and the only reason you can measure distances from a transport vehicle for an embarked unit is because the rulebook gives you express permission.

    Rulebook p.66
    If the players need to measure a range involving an embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

    Rulebook p.90
    Units of Troops embarked in a transport can control objectives (measure the distance to their vehicle's hull).
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  6. #15
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    So that mixed unit could never be scoring? And this is what we are discussing here, troops and an attached IC.

    Are you saying that when you attach an IC to a unit of troops it suddenly stops being troops?

    Also please consider that an Independent Character is no longer 'Independent' once it joins a unit with the sole exception of assault.
    Last edited by Wicky; February 23rd, 2011 at 01:39.
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  7. #16
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    251 (x8)

    The rules make no direct distinction between a unit and a model when scoring. Even the quoted text to say otherwise says unit, not models.

    The status of an IC being scoring or not doesn't matter, the troops unit is in range of the objective and the IC is part of the unit - that is literally all there is to it.

  8. #17
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    145 (x3)

    I don't feel that when an IC joins a unit from the Troops section that the unit in any way looses it's ability to hold objectives. It is still a scoring unit.
    The only way this came up was that none of the models in the unit (in my specific case, Eldar Guardians) were within 3" of the objective, but an attached IC (Eldrad) was.

    While the IC is considered part of the unit in most respects, the rules do state pretty clearly that only units selected from the Troops section are scoring.
    The IC is not selected from the Troops section and therefore not scoring.

    So again, I feel that if the IC has joined a squad of Troops and that IC is the ONLY model in that unit that is within range of the Objective then the objective is not considered held. That a model from a unit that was selected from the Troops section MUST be within 3".

    In my many years of playing this never even came up before, and in the specified game was allowed (a fun game after all).
    At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!

  9. #18
    Son of LO psichotykwyrm's Avatar
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    443 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by JMichael View Post
    The only way this came up was that none of the models in the unit (in my specific case, Eldar Guardians) were within 3" of the objective, but an attached IC (Eldrad) was.
    This is where your problem lies. The attached IC is a member of the unit, so therefore the entire unit is considered to be within range. Pleased refer to the beginning of the rulebook, where this is explained regarding ranges.

    It doesn't matter if the IC can score on his own. The Troops do, and they ARE within range because of the IC.

    You may not differentiate between the ranges to a unit and their attached IC. As far as units go, range to any one model is sufficient to count the ENTIRE unit within range. You may only differentiate when specifically checking ranges to individual models.

    The only thing that matters is the ranges to units. It's a fundamental mechanic that follows throughout the game. It doesn't matter how it 'feels', those are the rules.
    "It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous."
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  10. #19
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    580 (x8)

    A reply I got from Andy Hoare some years ago (4th Ed) when I asked him a question about a Resurrection Orb and the wording in the then FAQ about how it affected models in a unit. His reply included this:
    "I think the issue is less with the Orb, and more to do with a general principle in use in many of our games. This is the notion that a rule has an effect on a "unit in range". It is a general principle that the whole unit is in range if one or more of its models are within the range of the item giving rise to the rule, and furthermore that all the models in the unit will be affected"
    An IC becomes part of any unit he joins. He does not alter that unit's status as a Troops/Elites/Whatever, but to all intents and purposes he is a model in the unit. It is not relevant that he is an IC (except for Assault).

    If the IC was the only model in the unit which was in range to launch an assault, no one will argue that the unit can assault. If he doesn't affect the status of "Scoring Unit" of the unit he has joined, why would his being the only model in range to claim the objective be treated any differently? It is not HIM claiming the objective, it is the unit he is with and which he forms part of (P.49 BRB quoted before).

    E.
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  11. #20
    Senior Member Doomlord's Avatar
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    25 (x1)

    Quote Originally Posted by eiglepulper View Post
    If the IC was the only model in the unit which was in range to launch an assault, no one will argue that the unit can assault.
    E.
    This was acctualy a good point and you mannaged to change my mind with it.

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