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  1. #1
    Senior Member Duo_Sonata's Avatar
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    BoP Force Weapons

    Something I've been kinda wondering about on Grey Knight units force weapons with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule since they function somewhat differently from normal force weapon users. Units with BoP after the first unsaved wound test to "activate" their force weapons and make them inflict ID for the phase while others target a single model they caused an unsaved wound on to inflict instant death on them. So far everyone I've seen have played it were upon BoP units activate their force weapons, every model already wounded suffers ID.

    Now my question is that while the wording for BoP force weapons say "for the phase" the wounded unit has already gone through it's wounding process would they have to retroactively have to remove models once the unit with BoP activates their weapons or only have to worry about ID from that point on?

    If the answer is that ID isn't retroactive then I'm probably wrong in my initial thinking and the BoP units force weapons still have the effect of inflicting ID on a target model they wounded in addition to causing instant death for the phase, if which is the case they would only be able to inflict ID on one model since the BoP unit itself is considered a single psyker.

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  3. #2
    jy2
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    There shouldn't be any retroactive force weapon wounds as the very first unsaved wound inflicted is supposed to test for ID. If you missed it, then supposedly you've missed your chance.
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    Senior Member Duo_Sonata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jy2 View Post
    There shouldn't be any retroactive force weapon wounds as the very first unsaved wound inflicted is supposed to test for ID. If you missed it, then supposedly you've missed your chance.
    The point of my pondering is if the added ID effect for the phase is only accounted for wounds from that point on once activated or if they account for the wounds inflicted at allowed them to test in the first place. Because if not then a proper mix of halberds and other weapons would become something of a necessity for any BoP unit wishing to make proper use of it's ID capabilities.
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  5. #4
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    GK codex p.54 -

    "If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds that are caused."

    So halberds hit and wounds. You pass psychic test to activate. From hereon out, those wounds and any further wounds, including those from swords and hammers that have yet to strike, causes ID.

    Hope I've answered your question.
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    Senior Member Duo_Sonata's Avatar
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    I just don't see why wounds that have been resolved without ID would be affected by the ID effect when it says "immediately after", keyword being "after". Or why when the unit "activates" their force weapons why they don't abide by the normal force weapon effect in addition to the ID effect for the phase since there's nothing to say that they do or not which usually means they do.
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    Senior Member Stradius's Avatar
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    Those wounds (and any other wounds later caused) will cause ID. That's very similar to the way regular Force Weapons work - you hit, inflict wound, they roll save, they fail, you test, you pass, wound becomes ID then models are removed. With BoP you must test at the normal point, and if you don't, you've lost your chance, much like you would with a regular force weapon.
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    Senior Member Duo_Sonata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stradius View Post
    Those wounds (and any other wounds later caused) will cause ID. That's very similar to the way regular Force Weapons work - you hit, inflict wound, they roll save, they fail, you test, you pass, wound becomes ID then models are removed. With BoP you must test at the normal point, and if you don't, you've lost your chance, much like you would with a regular force weapon.
    The only problem I've had is that in order for you to test in the first place an unsaved wound has to be inflicted which would not have the ID effect at the time.

    Models being removed shouldn't have any affect on BoP force weapons ID for the phase because they only needs unsaved wounds to activate unless of course they do function like normal force weapons in that they must target a model they wounded, in which case both models being removed and the test for activation make for a blurry combat step since both are done immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. From what I'm hearing the ID for the phase do indeed retroactively affect wounds already inflicted then and don't have to follow the normal force weapon rules in addition to the GK codex rules.

    Though it seems like my questions have been answered and I appreciate those bearing with me. From the answers I've gathered so far I see it as thus:
    Roll to Hit: Roll to wound: Roll Saves: Model suffers unsaved wound(this was the point I've been having trouble grasping): Test to activate: All wounds for the phase become ID(including those already suffered, retroactively killing those models)

    It may be worth noting that normal force weapons ID ability doesn't have a time limit except that the wound has to be from the current turn so you could do it at any point later in the turn although BoP units wouldn't be able to hold off on activating theirs.
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  9. #8
    jboweruk
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    What you have to remember is you are still testing the very first wound you cause, so no, it's not really retroactive, as you can't test before you wound you [U]must[U] test afterwards. then the models wounded by those weapons (ig halberds) die and so do any further unsaved wounds that turn.
    Say you have a squad of 5 termies, 3 with halberds, one with a sword, and finally one with a hammer, they are hitting a unit of 6 Tyranid warriors, so the halberds hit the warriors, as they go first of all the knights (and to my knowledge I6 is highest in this fight anyway), 2 hit with 2 attacks each the other misses, so now we know the nids can't save (no invulns), and the GK player makes his ld test to 'activate' his weapons. Right he hit the unit of nids which for our purposes are all exactly the same, that will be 4 dead nids. One for each unsaved wound. Now the nids go back and hit the knights killing 1 of the halberdiers. Then the sword guy goes, he gets 1 hit, killing another nid ID style. Then finally the Hammer goes, though in fairness I believe warriors are T4 anyway so I think even if the FW test didn't work, he'd still ID it due to the double strength of his hammer. It's this whole BoP think that makes Knights so dirty in CC. But as you see from my example there's no retroactive killing involved. It's done straight away so there's no mistake. And that is in B&W in the GK codex.

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    Senior Member Duo_Sonata's Avatar
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    Your senario wouldn't be correct as the 4 wounds from halberds wouldn't be ID when they're allocated so at best 2 models would be killed since they'd be identical(3 on one model, 1 wound on another)
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  11. #10
    Senior Member Stradius's Avatar
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    The Assault Phase works like this

    Step 1: Highest initiative step rolls to-hit
    Step 2: Highest initiative step rolls to-wound
    Step 3: Opponent assigns wounds to identical model groups, rolls saves.
    Step 3b: Test for Brotherhood of Psykers Force Weapons if applicable. Test for Boneswords if applicable.
    Step 3c: Remove models as per wound allocation.
    Step 4: Repeat as above until out of attacking models
    Step 5: Test for Daemonbane and similar effects if applicable. This is the last point at which you could test for a regular Force Weapon.

    jboweruk's scenario is correct. Models are not removed until after you test for Brotherhood of Psykers (although since they're at a higher initiative step than the sword, they should be resolved first. Especially since the Warriors are initiative 4, just like the sword)


    Edit: Yes, this could theoretically mean your Psyker could wait to see if slower models finish off his target before he tries his psychic test. Although he probably couldn't try it if he waited until after he got killed.
    Last edited by Stradius; August 5th, 2011 at 03:26.
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