Baal Pred. smoke during scout move and what happens turns after??

[camarodragon]

Baal pred makes it scout moves during the scout move and uses it smoke launchers. (as per the FAQ stating it can)

MY first turn, Baal pred shoot.

Opp first turn, Baal pred gets a +4 cover save as per the smoke launcher rules on pg. 62.


Legal???

[Farseer Macleod]

The rule states that after using smoke launchers the tank counts as obscured in your opponents next shooting phase. As per FAQ you are allowed to use your smoke launchers in the scout move but also as per FAQ it states that while smoke launchers are active you cannot shoot any weapon from that tank. So while you can say its legal to activate them in the scout move then have your turn so they'd still be active during you opponents turn, you illegaly fired the weapons on the tank during your turn.

[camarodragon]

[QUOTE=Farseer Macleod;1858326]but also as per FAQ it states that while smoke launchers are active you cannot shoot any weapon from that tank.

Where in the FAQ does it say that....????? did I miss one?

[psichotykwyrm]

It's fairly simple.

When benefiting from Smoke, you can't shoot. So basically when you shoot during your "actual turn", you've given up the Smoke.

While not "RAW", this is a simple reasoning that you can't experience mutually exclusive conditions simultaneously. Otherwise the game breaks down.

[Farseer Macleod]

[QUOTE=camarodragon;1858327]

but also as per FAQ it states that while smoke launchers are active you cannot shoot any weapon from that tank.

Where in the FAQ does it say that....????? did I miss one?

Its actually in the more specific armie FAQs such as space marines/grey knights.

I've not got it open to quote it word for word but it goes like this, even with power of the machine spirit if you pop smoke you cannot fire any weapons from that vehicle. Considering that power of the machine spirit allows you to fire one extra weapon than normal, even if the vehicle moved flat out. Thats pretty much saying, pop smoke and you cant shoot...period!

Just imagine, you pop smoke so your enemies cant get a good shot at you but since your surrounded by smoke you cant see them to shoot them either! Your opponents just shooting into a cloud of smoke hoping to hit you hence the 4+ cover save. Makes some sort of sense when you think of it like that.

[Wicky]

The problem here is the wording of "the vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same 'turn' as it used its smoke launchers."

Now what 'turn' does a Scout move happen in? By RAW it is done before the first turn and I interpret that to mean it is outside of the turn sequence.

So in the original post we have a vehicle using a turn based ability outside of its turn and this runs like -

1. Baal Predator makes a Scout 'Move' and pops smoke, no issues there as its been FAQed,
2. Baal Pred. (can move AGAIN in turn 1) fires - is this the same turn as it popped smoke in? NO.
3. Enemies next shooting phase grants it a cover save again no issues there.

It is point 2 I have an issue with as you may not take cover with you in the game (page 21 is the closest mention of this, last sentence) and yet .......... in this case you most certainly are.

I do agree though as to psichotykwyrm's line of reasoning though, and as he says, it's not RAW though.

[krytie]

I'm fairly certain there's no direct rules contradiction but also that most of us would agree this goes against RAI. The current wording of smoke launchers was supposed to clear things up in this edition, but as ever there are loopholes.

I think we can agree that the intended use of smoke launchers is that they provide cover until your own next turn, but since the only time cover would come into play would/should be in the opponent's next shooting phase, that's what they wrote. I would assume that the next action taken by the smoked unit would negate the smoke. Of course common sense should also help here : How can the smoke launchers protect the tank if he moved again since the launchers were fired? (I appreciate that no-one said they were moved, and it makes sense to remain stationary to fire all guns whilst abusing the smoke.)

The more interesting aspect would be, what if a walker fired smoke on the turn it assaults, wins combat and is left in the open? Does he benefit from smoke in the next enemy shooting phase? RAW would say he does, but i would find it hard to justify this given he's run into combat, fought CC, and then consolidated.

[Farseer Macleod]

I think this whole situation makes sense using the power of the Machine Spirit FAQ. Now the ability of POTMS is that it lets you fire an extra weapon than you normally would, also at a different target if you so choose but thats beside the point.
Now, even when a vehicle that moves flat-out and would not normally be able to fire any weapons at all but the storm raven can fire one weapon because it has the POTMS and this has been FAQ'd.

There is an FAQ that also states that when a vehicle fires its smoke launchers it can not fire any weapons that turn even if it has POTMS. This therefore says, quite obviously, that while smoke is active it is impossible to fire any weapons, it is not whether or not popping the smoke prevents you firing because you choose to do one or the other because if that was the case POTMS would allow you to fire because its rules state that you can fire an extra weapon more than normal. So this is a simple case of RAI not RAW.
The fact that you can pop smoke in the scouting phase is yet again an FAQ and has to be taken with a pinch of salt because since it doesn't go into any further details about what you can and cannot do after the smoke has been popped because it is a rule that has been added after the rulebook has been written and so is an oversight on GWs part. So, in my opinion at least, logically while smoke launchers are in effect you can't shoot at all no matter what phase it is.

[Wicky]

Probably more accurate to say that the vehicle may not shoot until the smoke has been negated by the end of enemies next shooting phase.

That's how it plays in the game but knowing that does ruin the realism somewhat.

[Bdoydie]

The FAQ states
Q: Can a vehicle with the ‘Power of the Machine Spirit’
fire a weapon on the turn the vehicle uses Smoke
Launchers? (p37)
A: No.

So this would mean on your scout move you can use smoke launchers to get your 4+ save,
but cannot fire any weapons
then in 1st turn you are still benefitting from the smoke launchers so cannot fire any weapons but still get 4+ cover save.

So if you get 1st turn there is no point wasting smoke launchers if you are planning on shooting
But if your opponent gets 1st turn it makes sense to use them as they will get the chance to shot at you first.