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Now I keep thinking of this situation/question but never remember to look it up, so I am calling on you to help me with this question.
Q:Can a flame template weapon be fired even if it does not touch the units main target?
Example: A unit of Marines shoots a Trygon that is 10" away. There is a unit of Hormagaunts between the Marines and the Trygon. Can the Marines use the Flamer in their squad to hit the Gaunts even though the template will not reach the Trygon?
Have at it!
Well, here's how it seems according to a literal interpretation of the rule book:
The shooting phase requires you to (p. 15):
Step 1: Your unit with a flamer can check line of sight and pick the Trygon in the distance.
- First, check line of sight and pick target.
- Two, check range.
- Three, roll to hit.
Step 2: Your unit then checks its range for each firing model. Note that "any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically" (p. 17).
Step 3: Your unit then rolls to hit with any model not excluded from Step 2, meaning any model within range.
Now, reading under Template weapons, it states that "instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template..." (p. 29). That suggests the template goes into effect in Step 3, when you're rolling to hit. If you never make it to Step 3, because you were out of range in Step 2, then you don't get to use the weapon... the weapon misses automatically.
Rules also say you have to place the template so it "covers as many models as possible in the target unit" (p. 29). Combined with this, it says the Wounds are to "be put onto any model in the unit" (p. 29). Since the template cannot be placed to cover any model in the target unit, let alone allocate Wounds, it would seem the template weapon cannot be used.
So, taking RAW very literally, you cannot use the Template weapon since it was out of range and cannot be placed on the target unit.
Last edited by XIII; May 4th, 2012 at 20:13.
nevermind read it wrong
Yes I'd agree that it's out of range so it doesn't shoot.
If you fire the flamer at the trygon and it's out of range then the unit imbetween you and the trygon are not hit as you're missing the trygon. If you hit the trygon then the unit in the middle will get hit as well.
Ok I agree with what is being said. But lets play the Devils advocate.
A template weapons range is specified as "Template" and not a distance in inches. As you stated before you would "instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template...". Now that the template is placed you need to move it so that it "covers as many models as possible in the target unit".
Am I correct so far?
Now some may say that the key here is "Check Range" and "covers as many models as possible in the target unit". The Range is "Template" and not a distance in inches so i think you would skip part 2. Now the most number of models covered in the target unit in this case is 0, fulfilling that requirement of "as many as possible". Now if a weapon is out of range it automatically misses, but that does not mean that it was not shot, it just failed to reach the intended target, and as they attempted to fire at the target unit but only hits the intervening unit and would therefor hit the other unit.
Now if this is that case then 1 shot weapons like Combi-flamer/melta/plasma and some missiles would be considered to be used even if they were outside the range of the weapon. If not then the weapon would still be considered intact and could be fired again once in range.
So it kind of comes down to a question of "If a target is out or range does the shot automatically miss, or can the weapon not be shot at all?" Thoughts?
The same situation could happen if a LRBT(that hasn't moved, or even if moved it can still fire cannon and 1 other weapon... and survived CC somehow, or before CC happens next turn...) fired at a target 36" away, straight ahead front , while a unit (Ork Boyz with Nob/Power Klaw) was spread out directly in front of the tank's hull heavy flamer and possibly the sponson flamers x2...
Would you get to hit the Boyz in this case with 3 flamer templates?
I would love it if we could, but I doubt this would be allowed...for game balance reasons. This is to me a case of game rules don't follow real life...
Last edited by warhammerpainters; May 5th, 2012 at 00:33.
In the same way that a blast template from a frag missile has a 48" range, in that the center point of the blast template has to be within 48" of the model firing. So the range is used to designate where the blast originates. A blast, afterall, can reach a model 49.5" away, so long as the center of the blast was aimed 48" away.
Or a large blast from a demolisher cannon. 24" range, but it can hit a model 26.5" away so long as the origin point is 24" away.
As such, a template doesn't have a range of 8", and I don't think the range argument applies.
In a short discussion our gaming group, we settled that you could fire a template toward a target out of reach, but it has to be aimed as the shortest distance (so no maximizing gaunts under the template, it has to be pointed as directly at the trygon as possible). I don't think it was used, because we thought it was against the spirit of the game. This was just a quick, off the cuff, decision, though, nothing official.
I don't get why we're having this argument, there are no shades of grey to the question.
If you fire a weapon which uses the 'flamer' template and the unit you are targeting is not in range (i.e the template does not touch them) then you have missed, that is it no further discussion. If the unit you are firing at is in range then the unit in the middle would get hit. While you can still move the template around to try and get as many of the middle unit under the template, it can only be moved while you are still touching the unit you are originally targeting.
Stop trying to bend the rules or play 'devils advocate'.
If the template touches it is a hit, if it does not then it is a miss.
You're right. If the template does not touch the trygon, it does not hit the trygon. But if a template does not hit it's original target, does it never exist? I mean, you have to place the template to see if it reaches at all anyways, so obviously you're putting the template down, seeing the Trygon is not under it, and seeing the gaunts are under it.
Now, a blast template works in this fashion. If it scatters off the original unit and onto a secondary unit, the secondary unit is hit. We do not say that the secondary unit is not hit because the first unit is not hit, and so no hits means no template. Or does this only apply to blast templates because it is specifically mentioned in the rules (I think it's mentioned in the rules) that it can scatter to a secondary unit?
I do think it's a bit gamey and unsporting to run the rules this way, but I really haven't heard any proper argument to the contrary. You'd think something like this would be something basic in the rulebook or FAQ, as it hasn't been that uncommon for my group, where we commonly run dreadnoughts with heavy flamers and other weapons.