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I am considering building a Preheresy Thousand Sons army based on the Grey Knight Codex. I plan to have a very fluffy army. Each of the five cults will be represented throughout, accounting for much of the 'counts as' replacements. All models are assigned a cult, and all cults (with the exception of Raptora) are present in each unit. I would like your opinions on the following 'counts as' models/rules and how you feel about their viability, their clarity, and playing against them in general.
1.) Cult of Pavae members [flame manipulation and technopathy] count as psycannons. Modeled with outstretched hands wielding warp flames. They also account for the Warp Quake power by interfering with teleport homers etc. Also bears the cult symbol on shoulder pad.
2.) Cult of Pavoni members [bio-manipulation] account for the Hammerhand power psychically bolstering their brothers' bodies. Also counts as Daemonhammer as they radically increase their own strength. Modeled with helmets off, as they were noted to reform their own features and be especially vain/arrogant. Daemonhammer modeled as enlarged fist. Also bears the cult symbol on shoulder pad.
3.) Cult of Raptora members [telekenisis and kine shields] count as Warding Staves. Modeled as a forcefield growing from hand. Also bears the cult symbol on shoulder pad. They also pilot vehicles accounting for the Fortitude power, vehicles bearing the symbol as well.
4.) Cult of Corvidae members [precognition] count as having Force Halberds, the initiative boost due to their immediate foresight. Not sure of the modeling, may just give them halberds. Also accounts for Grand Strategy. Also bears the cult symbol on shoulder pad.
5.) Cult of Athanaean members [telepathy] account for all bolters counting as storm bolters. Fluffwise this is the Athanaeans reading enemy thoughts and gleaning positions and directions, then relaying this info to their brothers for uncannily efficient bolter fire. Modeled
6.) The myriad other manifestations of psychic powers [telekinetic limb ripping, short range warpfire blasts, blood boiling, premonition of enemy strikes to exploit weaknesses] are represented by force weapons. The psykers can easily negate armor at close range, and some times can completely wreck (by activating the force weapons). The models will be armed with various weapons so WYSIWYG shouldn't be a problem here.
This covers the majority of my thoughts about it. I anticipate #5 causing the most controversy because it is one canon weapon representing another, but I really don't want to have everyone carrying a storm bolter (not fluffy!). Let me know what you think! Thanks.
Why is this in the rules forum?
I specifically want opinions about this regarding 'counts as' and WYSIWYG rules. If you came up against an army modeled and 'counting as' described, do you think it would be a problem or no?
If all you said was "im using GK codex" then i dont see a problem
They'll need to be the right size and easily distinguishable. You still might run into problems at tournaments.
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I run a count-as space wolves army, so how to model it and match WYSIWYG is something I've spent a lot of time pondering.
First off, when you designate a model as something it isn't, you have to make sure that it's glaringly obvious. There's no room for subtlety in such things. When you talk about a unit having an outstretched hand that's shooting fire, it cannot be some little candle he's holding in his hand, it has to be LARGE FLAMES, in a strong contrasting colours. You don't want your opponent to have to go searching for it. As soon as you're requiring work on your opponent's part, he's bound to cry foul. Everything is going to be super obvious to you, because you've been staring at these models for umpteen hours to work on them. Not so for your opponent, though. So take what you think is obvious and dial it up to 11.
For the most part, people don't have a problem remembering that fire=psycannons, shields=staves, so long as they don't have to do any work to go searching for it. Just using shoulder pads to designate isn't enough. It needs to be blatant.
I do agree that your biggest problem is going to be the bolters=storm bolters. People have an easy time accepting "custom weapons" with in-game rules (they're fine if you make up your own weapons), but once you start saying stuff like "All flamers are actually meltaguns" or "All bolters are actually storm bolters", then you will get some resistance. Not from everybody, but a few people out there. You're better off making (or ordering online) a customized bolter that looks close enough to a bolter that it's recognizable, but different enough that it's not the same.
And, of course, if you're doing a grey knight count-as army, expect to catch a lot of attitude just for running a grey knight count-as army. Doesn't matter how much effort or time you put into your models, some people will still throw you into the "codex hopping, power gaming crowd". I think folk are against it because they don't like the idea of people having their cake (models they like) and eating it too (good ruleset).
Last edited by Klajorne; May 27th, 2012 at 14:10.
I would echo what Klajorne said there about using already-well-recognised weapons and saying they count as something else. I've been in this situation where an opponent has told me that such-and-such wasn't X, it was Y. This was fine at the start of the game, but when you've reached turn three and suddenly the "flamer" that your Land Raider is now sitting beside miraculously turns into the meltagun you were told about but which you'd forgotten in the heat of battle - that's not funny or fair.
In other words it is important that you make things VERY obvious to your opponent. You can't expect them to keep coming back to you and having to ask you to remind them what everything is weapon-wise. It is frustrating and makes the game less enjoyable.
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I think its a good idea and pretty well thought out. As has been said before just be ready to remind opponents (without prompting) what your models are, even if it means giving you a slight disadvantage in surprise tactics ( see flamer melta gun example above).
That said I was surprised at the warhammer tournement at how much people were abloe to 'count as' and get away with.
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A lot of people are talking about Flamers = Meltaguns and stuff, and I agree that this isn't quite fair. However, if you do your stuff right and you make non-weapons look uniform, you should be fine. Just remind your opponent frequently. I know that in several games, I've had the official meltagun in a unit and let my opponent move their tank next to it without warning them - it's there, it's obvious, you should know better. You can't pull those kinds of tricks with a counts-as though, when that tank comes rolling over you need to remind your opponent, "hey, you do remember that these guys have Psycannons right?" and then give him the option to change his mind about the move.
I use GKs as my counts-as Exorcists, and one thing that I did was model all of their wrist-mounted stormbolters into hand-held versions. They're still stormbolters, short, twin barreled things with a thick magazine, but they're more "typical marine" style. It looks good, just looks like they're a bit more elite than a typical chapter (which the Exorcists are, and Pre Heresy chapters may have been as well)
The biggest thing I'd worry about is making sure that everything is on the same base and is approximately the same height and width of regular grey knights. A friend of mine was trying to field regular marines as counts as terminators. This doesn't work, because regular marines are tiny comparatively, and their bases are much smaller.
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