Wbb Rolls, Being Cut Down & Tomb Spider

[justinb67]

"So if you are in combat and your enemy makes enough attacks to kill all the scarabs and the has enough left over to make a wound against the Tomb Spyder, these will be made at T 3,"

That is official as it gets, but your right, I would imagine it to be the other way. If you stripped this ability from the tomb spider, it would become almost completely useless. I would vote for a change in the rules for the TMC which would extend the current targeting of the TMC to CC, but I am biased, cuz I still want to use my tomb spiders.

I still haven't recieved a response from GW, but the answer I found on the C'Tan support group pretty much spells out how CC works with a MC joined to a unit under the current rules.

Thanks,
Justin

[Oruk, Scar-Vetran]

Just one thing, what is TMC?

[justinb67]

Tyranid Monstrous Creature

[kryzak]

here's the more "official" answer justin...

So TMCs can always be targeted in shooting or combat, unless they join Tyrant Guards... Tomb Spyder never can be targeted in shooting or CC.

1 The Tomb Spyder is a bit of an oddball and the rules for monstrous
creatures in the main rule book are not clear on this matter. In my opinion
as a hobby specialist they should be counted as an integral part of the
squad because they created it, the Spyder did not join the unit like an
independent character. Therefore the Spyder cannot be shot at or attacked
separately in close combat, however this does mean that unless the tomb
Spyder is on its own the toughness of the scarabs T3 will be used instead of
its own T6, see page 41 of Warhammer 40000. We will pass this on and get it
a Q&A.

2 Tyranid monstrous creatures that can join units are all independent
characters and can be picked out separately in close combat, see page 51 of
Warhammer 40000. They can also be targeted separately in shooting, see page
19 of Warhammer 40000

Please include all previous email correspondence in your replies, or if you
prefer, you can give us a ring on 0115 9140000 and we will be more than
happy to answer any questions you may have.

Cheers, hear from you soon,

Gareth Taylor

Games Workshop Hobby Specialist

[Uzi-99]

Tyranid monstrous creatures that can join units are all independent
characters

--- Except that TMCs are not Independent Characters... This is the problem, because most people assume they are ICs since they have some rules in common.

This is not the case. TMCs are TMCs and also count as MCs according to the 4thEd FAQ, nothing else. Unless GW specifically puts out a FAQ that defines MCs/TMCs otherwise, the TMCs can't be targeted in CC.

Yes, it makes sense (I myself am of the opinion that the TMCs should be targetable in CC), but the rules do not allow for it at the moment.

In regards to TMCs not being ICs, I refer You to the older 3rdEd Tyranid FAQ Ver2:

Q. It is my understanding that the preliminary barrage affects all units,
except for vehicles and Independent Characters. Thus, if the bugs have no
vehicles or Independent Characters it would seem that all of the bugs are at
risk.
A. That’s what it means.

--- As proved, Tyranids do not have ICs.

TMCs do not follow IC rules, but their own Codex-specific TMC rules... This is also the specific reason why TMCs are still able to allocate hits in CC to specific models in BtB, while ICs have lost that ability.

[kryzak]

Hi Uzi,

While I do'nt have the Tyranid Codex at the moment, I don't think 3rd Ed FAQ is really valid anymore. I think I'll have to look through the Codex again to see if I can find anything... the only two things I can find in 4th Ed FAQ is that it:

1. follows MC rules in Rulebook, and doesn't count as vehicles
2. For Hive Tyrant, only units in B2B contact with the Hive Tyrant have to take the Horror test...

from #2, it sounds like an IC to me...

though again, one can argue and argue forever, like the C'Tan and Old One Eye debate... but it all comes down to if you can agree to a set of rules with your opponent, or in tourneys, whether the roolboyz there would decide in your favor or not... :lol:

[Uzi-99]

Originally posted by kryzak@Dec 16 2004, 23:47
While I do'nt have the Tyranid Codex at the moment, I don't think 3rd Ed FAQ is really valid anymore.

--- It's still valid as a reference, in this case that there are no Tyranid ICs.

Also, there is nothing in either the Codex or the FAQ which would state the TMCs are ICs. Thus whether or not the 3rdEd reference is valid, You still have no rules stating TMCs are ICs.

Ergo, TMCs are not ICs because the rules do not say so.

Since someone is bound to mention this (from the Codex): "TMCs combine some of the abilities of both independent characters and monstrous creatures. As such the following rules apply:"

All this does is state that they combine some of the rules for ICs and MCs. This makes them neither an IC nor a MC, but a TMC, a new class of unit defined by their own Codex rules. The only reason TMCs are now classed as MCs is because the Tyranid FAQ explicitly states that they are.

Since nothing classifies them as ICs, they are not ICs.

2. For Hive Tyrant, only units in B2B contact with the Hive Tyrant have to take the Horror test...

from #2, it sounds like an IC to me...

--- Not quite... The Horror is a model-specific power and thus only helps the model that has it, as the clarification clearly states.

Ruleswise the situation is more similiar to one model having Frag Grenades while others do not: Only the model itself benefits from the Frag. Yes, again this most often happens with ICs, but here the issue isn't whether the model is IC or not but rather whether or not certain wargear/psychics/etc affect models other than the model equipped with it.

[kryzak]

so none of the MCs can be targeted in shooting or assault? Is that the ruling?

except the TMCs, due to the Codex, can be shot at in a unit...

Interesting... will have to see how others play it then.

The irony is, Tomcat says that all the GW folks in the US say that you can shoot and attack the Tomb Spyder in a unit, because MCs are Independent Characters... another battle where I'm on the side that you can't shoot or CC Tomb Spyders... =)

Check this out:

onstrous creatures can always be picked out, you can't have a units of multiple tomb spyders, or a unit of any other monstrous creature. they are like vehicles. they are size 3, and may be picked out indiscriminately. if you have a hive tyrant in a squad of termagants, you can pick it out. you can shoot into the squad of termagants with the hive tyrant, and blast it with lascannons, but that would be silly, you target the MC, as you can always do.

I've called multiple times and argued vehemently on behalf of the tomb spyder being shielded by the scarabs, and the concensus is NO they may be picked out. I guess in England it's a different game

It's in the Necrons forum, under "Tomb Spyders, Particle Projector or not"

http://www.librarium-online.com/index.php?...pic=27046&st=30

[Kirasu]

GW will most likely never make an offical ruling on this because, A) They h ave some adversion to actually fixing things and The tyranid codex may or may not come out within the next 6 months

what the rule boys say isnt set in stone because they never post their decisions to the populace and GW never posts them on the website.

Also the 3rd edition faqs ARE STILL VALID. Really, why would they be invalid. 4th edition FAQs are only designed to let you make the switch to 4th edition not to reprint every single question that has already been answered (Granted they should, see (A))

Here is the easiest workaround -

1) TMCs have wacky rules atm and until the new codex comes out they'll continue to have rules that go against everything new printed - Fact
2) You cant really prove they are IC's until GW posts something official - Fact
3) If you try to pull the invicible hive tyrant in a casual game people will *stop* playing you - Fact

So either you lose opponents over this or you only play in tournaments and most likely get ruled against and lose a ton of points.

Therefore my suggestion is to allow people to target them in CC as Ic's, since that is obviously the spirit of the rule from various GW responses. You can argue the other way, but unless you only play TheoryHammer you're gonna end up with people who won't want to play you. Even I don't want to play against invincible TMCs because it's stupid, plain and simple

SOmetimes winning means losing, and in this case if you try to argue this at a gamestore you're going to lose one way or another. Yeah I try to know every single rule from every single codex, but sometimes the game must go on and you just gotta go with it

So you cannot target TMCs per the vague and forgotten rules, but you should be able to and I suggest that's how you play it unless you enjoy halting games for 45 minutes and not having opponents heh

[Uzi-99]

And just in case some people haven't read my other posts, I'll do a recap:

I also agree that MCs/TMCs should fight separately from the unit they are a part of in a manner similar to ICs, essentially:

1. Requiring the MC to be in BtB contact with the unit it wishes to fight against in CC
2. Requiring/allowing the MC to be targeted as a separate target from the unit it is a part of

This simply makes the most sense... After all, if an IC can be targeted separately from their retinue in CC, then clearly something big and monstrous like a Hive Tyrant or Tomb Spyder should be targetable for CC attacks. On that note, this is how I play my TMCs.


The issue is that the rules do not state this, so those of a more argumentative disposition could try to dispute this. Succesfully? Unlikely, since most people would simply not play them...

Some people might wonder why I argue on behalf of a rule which I myself find stupid and overpowering... I do it simply to make people aware that there is a potential issue and thus allowing them to prepare for a potential argument, nevermind that hopefully people will take this to GW and after enough replies GW decides to clarify the situation in a FAQ.