Wbb Rolls, Being Cut Down & Tomb Spider

[justinb67]

okay, if I lose say 4 warriors, and then fail leadership and get cut down, then do I still get the wbb rolls for the 4 warriors (granted there are units close enough to alow it or a tomb spider)?

Also, since the scarabs are forced to becom an squad and maintain unit coherency with the tomb spider that created them, and I can find no reference to the tomb spider being "above all others" or acting as an independent character in close combat, can I take the wounds recieved in close combat on the scarabs before I take it on the tomb spider (of course using majority toughness)?

Thanks,
Justin

[Brother Marius]

As for the first question, I have come upon this many times and we generally allow it because of the nature in which the warriors were killed, it allows a WBB. Only warriors who were cut down do not get it. Now for the tomb spyder, since it is a MC it can be shot at through the squad.

[justinb67]

okay, I would think the same thing as it goes for the tomb spider, but I can't find anything in the rule book to back it up. I can find no reference to a monstrous creature being part of a squad, and I think that is the heart of the problem, since the scarabs it creates become a squad with it. The C'Tan have an "Above all others" rule, but the tomb spider does not, and this is where I am getting confused.

If the Tomb Spider can be singled out, then what is the point of making scarabs? I think the whole point behind that ability was to give it a few meat shields so it will last longer.

Thanks,
Justin

[Uzi-99]

Originally posted by justinb67@Dec 13 2004, 10:46
okay, if I lose say 4 warriors, and then fail leadership and get cut down, then do I still get the wbb rolls for the 4 warriors (granted there are units close enough to alow it or a tomb spider)?

--- As stated, those Warriors which were killed before the unit was wiped out by Sweeping may still try for WBB if they're eligible to do so as per the rules for WBB.

Also, since the scarabs are forced to becom an squad and maintain unit coherency with the tomb spider that created them, and I can find no reference to the tomb spider being "above all others" or acting as an independent character in close combat, can I take the wounds recieved in close combat on the scarabs before I take it on the tomb spider (of course using majority toughness)?

--- This is something that is currently not dealt with by 4thEd at all. MCs within units do not have any special targeting rules, and as such it would seem that ruleswise they indeed are a part of the unit and untargetable.

Of course, note that for shooting purposes this only applies to Tomb Spyders with Scarabs, since Tyranid MCs have their own special rules in regards to shooting.

In CC, they would be considered as part of the unit as well, and effectively be untargetable. Yes, they would be wounded on Majority Toughness, but the "Mixed Armour" rule would still save them from certain death in most cases.


My personal opinion on the matter is that MCs (and TMCs) within units should follow the IC rules of always counting as a separate unit for the purposes of fighting in CC, essentially requiring that the MC is in BtB and can thus always be singled out as a target.

This is the way TAR handled it, and IMO it makes the most sense even in the 4thEd situation.

Don't know how much it would matter for the TS and Scarabs, but TMCs which would be untargetable in CC would simply be overpowering to the extreme... Imagine a Hive Tyrant joined to a brood of 32 Gaunts in CC?

[justinb67]

Originally posted by Uzi-99@Dec 13 2004, 11:35
--- As stated, those Warriors which were killed before the unit was wiped out by Sweeping may still try for WBB if they're eligible to do so as per the rules for WBB.
--- This is something that is currently not dealt with by 4thEd at all. MCs within units do not have any special targeting rules, and as such it would seem that ruleswise they indeed are a part of the unit and untargetable.

Of course, note that for shooting purposes this only applies to Tomb Spyders with Scarabs, since Tyranid MCs have their own special rules in regards to shooting.

In CC, they would be considered as part of the unit as well, and effectively be untargetable. Yes, they would be wounded on Majority Toughness, but the "Mixed Armour" rule would still save them from certain death in most cases.
My personal opinion on the matter is that MCs (and TMCs) within units should follow the IC rules of always counting as a separate unit for the purposes of fighting in CC, essentially requiring that the MC is in BtB and can thus always be singled out as a target.

This is the way TAR handled it, and IMO it makes the most sense even in the 4thEd situation.

Don't know how much it would matter for the TS and Scarabs, but TMCs which would be untargetable in CC would simply be overpowering to the extreme... Imagine a Hive Tyrant joined to a brood of 32 Gaunts in CC?

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Pardon me for my lack of knowledge, I am fairly new. I understand the TMC's being extremely hard to kill when joined to a set of gaunts, that makes complete sense. So if I am reading your statement right, there is a rule for TMC's that allows individual targeting of TMC's, but it does not apply in close combat? I'll have to grab my codex and check out the "above all others" rule, but I thought it also allowed singl'ing out in close combat.

Thanks for the info!

BTW - I e-mailed GW on this one last night also, so we shall see what they say.

And what is TAR?

Thanks,
Justin

[Uzi-99]

Originally posted by justinb67@Dec 13 2004, 19:46
I understand the TMC's being extremely hard to kill when joined to a set of gaunts, that makes complete sense.

--- If that makes sense, then shouldn't ICs with Retinue or joined with units be extremely hard to kill as well?

Since they aren't, I see no reason for something big and monstrous to be untargetable in CC.

So if I am reading your statement right, there is a rule for TMC's that allows individual targeting of TMC's, but it does not apply in close combat?

--- Yup, but only TMCs...

I'll have to grab my codex and check out the "above all others" rule, but I thought it also allowed singl'ing out in close combat.

--- It doesn't, but the reason for that is that C'tan can't join or be a part of units. Thus the C'tan always counts as its own unit in CC, and can be targeted. Rules for Multiple Combat on page 45.

The difference with TMCs and TSpyders is that they can be part of other units, and they do not have special rules regarding targeting in CC.

And what is TAR?

--- Trial Assault Rules.

These were the revised assault rules for 3rdEd WH40K, and formed the basis of the 4thEd assault ruleset. Unfortunately, some of the TAR definitions (like MCs always counting as a unit in their own right in regards to CC) were forgotten.

It could be a deliberate omission, but I wouldn't bet... This is a relatively small issue affecting only Necrons and Tyranids (since to my knowledge they're the only ones with MCs that can be part of units), so it most probably is a blunder on GWs part. Nevertheless, with Tyranids the effects of this one mistake can be seriously overpowering.

[justinb67]

--- If that makes sense, then shouldn't ICs with Retinue or joined with units be extremely hard to kill as well?

Since they aren't, I see no reason for something big and monstrous to be untargetable in CC.

Sorry, I meant I understood your point.

Justin

[Kirasu]

THe problem is that instead of having tyranids use the new rules GW got lazy and reverted back to the very old codex rules which are out of date. Thats why Im hoping their codex comes out next to fix TMC rules and get them up to date

Being able to specifically target models is absurd considering they took that away from everyoen else and im assuming GW will no longer allow that for TMCs.

But yes its legal due to the obsolete nature of the tyranid codex. A hive tyrant is virtually invincible in a squad of gaunts in CC. Good luck getting a ruling on this too. It's taking them 4 months to even issue the revised FAQ on Tau drones even tho they drafted a response in september (I saw the email)

[justinb67]

this was posted on the C'Tan support group. It is a reply from GW, but indirectly points out that the scarabs can take wounds from close combat. The post is actually an answer about majority toughness.

Q - I have a quick question about the rules for the Necron Tomb Spyder and the Scarab Swarms it produces.

The issue is that the Scarab Swarms produced by the Tomb Spyder make up a unit with Tomb Spyder.

The Tomb Spyder has a T 6 and Sv 3+, where as the Scarab Swarm has a T 3 and Sv 5+ If the Tomb Spyder has generated one or more Scarab Swarms and is attacked in hand-to-hand combat according to the rules the different toughness (page
41) should apply and as the Scarab Swarms are going to make up at least half the unit the units T will be considered to be 3.

This makes the Tomb Spyder very easy to kill when compared to being on its own.

This seems to make the creating Scarab Swarms a little pointless as because the Tomb Spyder is a Monstrous Creature and so the Scarab Swarms can even be used to act as mobile targets.

Can you give me some advice on these rules.


A - Thanks for your email, a very good question indeed.

The reason this rule has been created was to generally speed up the assault phase. If your Tomb Spyder has created a scarab swarm, then you will have to use the majority Toughness in combat, obviously, there will always be more Scarabs.

So if you are in combat and your enemy makes enough attacks to kill all the scarabs and the has enough left over to make a wound against the Tomb Spyder, these will be made at T 3, as this was the majority Toughness.
Something to remember is that this is all on initiative, so on the next turn, if you only have the Tomb Spyder left, then you will be able to use the Toughness of this model as normal.

I hope this helps, if you have any further questions then please do not hesitate to ask.

Cheers, hear from you soon,

Rob

Games Workshop Hobby Specialist

So if your TMC was joined to *1* gaunt, then you would use the gaunt to determine toughness to hit (majority toughness, or the lower of the tie). But you are right, if he was joined to a crapload of them, then we would have a problem.

Justin

[Uzi-99]

Originally posted by justinb67@Dec 14 2004, 03:28
So if your TMC was joined to *1* gaunt, then you would use the gaunt to determine toughness to hit (majority toughness, or the lower of the tie). But you are right, if he was joined to a crapload of them, then we would have a problem.

--- Well aware of that... Majority Toughness doesn't change the situation, especially since the TMCs would still most often be saved by their Armour.

The point is, not only would the TMC be untargetable, but it still has full effect on CC (unlike ICs, which are targetable and MUST remain so in order to fight in CC)!

What enemy CC unit could inflict 33 wounds in a single CC phase, especially taking into accord that in all likelihood a Tyrant strikes first and the Gaunts at the same time with the opponent? With 'Fex evading CC casualties would be a bit easier, since the enemy would try to remove all the casualties from BtB close to 'Fex so that the 'Fex wouldn't count as engaged once its turn to strike arrives.

After the Gaunts have taken sufficient casualties so that Majority Toughness actually has a serious chance of hurting the TMC, the TMC leaves the brood (unless still tied in CC, of course).

Of course, shooting could be directed at the Tyrant or the unit as a whole, which can result in a wounded Tyrant or less Gaunts... That's still potentially a whole lot of extra wounds in CC.

Even a unit of regular Tyrant Guard make the TMC nigh invincible... They'd offer a degree of protection against shooting as well, and the Tyrant can't be singled out in CC while the Majority Toughness remains at the rather formidable TMC level.


Thus my stance on the issue remains: MCs within units should be considered as fighting on their own (like ICs are):
1) allowing MCs to be targeted as a separate unit
2) requiring them to be in BtB contact to fight.

At least TMCs... Tomb Spyders aren't that hot in the first place.

Hope we get official clarification on this... Which might never come. Common sense in this case is very good, but we all know there are people whose common sense differs from ours. =/