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I had a rule dispute come up on Saturday and have some related questions and I'm sure this community can clear 'em up pretty easily. I'm gonna put the situations in multiple choice formats, feel free to elaborate on your answer if they're worded badly. I'll also put what I think the answer is there... I'm pretty sure I'm right on most of 'em, but experience is taught me that most of the times in my life I was dead wrong about something, I was pretty sure I was right Any thoughts on these are greatly appreciated.
1) A Tyranid Carnifex (monstrous creature) assaults a unit of 5 space marines, 3 with bolters, 1 sergeant, 1 with a lascannon. The Carnifex makes base contact with ONLY the lascannon marine. The Carnifex inflicts one wounding hit. The space marine player...
A) Must lose the lascannon marine since he is in base contact with the monstrous creature.
May lose the lascannon marine or any marine within 2" of the lascannon marine.
C) None of the above. ('splain, please )
I say "B" since monstrous creatures are treated as independent characters in assaults and follow the rules for independent characters on page 51 of the BGB. The marines as a whole are a unit.
2) A Tyranid Carnifex (monstrous creature) assaults a space marine HQ squad lead by a librarian (independent character.) The Carnifex makes base contact with ONLY the librarian.
A) Only the librarian and Carnifex can attack/be attacked in this assault. The rest of the HQ squad is not involved on this turn.
The Carnifex can assault / be assaulted by any marine within 2" of the librarian.
C) None of the above.
My thought is "A," again referring to the rules for independent characters on page 51.
3) Exact same situation as 2, except now the Carnifex enters base contact with the librarian AND one of the space marines from the HQ squad.
A) Both the librarian, and any HQ marine within 2" of the contacted marine may attack the Carnifex. The Carnifex may choose to allocate it's attacks against either the librarian, or the HQ squad. If he attacks the HQ squad, casualties must come from within 2" of the contacted HQ marine.
Uhhhh... something else. 'splain please
Obviously I'm going with A.
4) A Carnifex (this example Carnifex is busy today) assaults a Necron Tomb Spider (also a monstrous creature) with 2 attached scarab swarms. The Carnifex is only in base contact with the Tomb Spider.
A) Only the Carnifex and Tomb Spider can attack/be attacked this turn.
The Tomb Spider and all attached swarms can attack and take wounds this turn.
Answer wise I'm really not sure. If the Tomb Spider is an independent character, A is true. However the rules seem to imply that when a tomb spider creates swarms, they become a unit. I'm interested in hearing interpretations of this.
The assault rules with independent characters and multiple combats get a little tricky. Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter.
Answers are as follows:
1. The answer is A, because the Carnifex is only in base-to-base contact with the lascannon Marine.
2. The Librarian and the Command Squad are a single unit in this case, so any model within 2" of a friendly model in base-to-base can attack the Carnifex. They won't be able to hurt it without Furious Charge, though. The Carni can only attack the Librarian.
3. The Carnifex can choose to attack the Librarian or the other Marine, while any Marine within 2" of those two models can attack the Carnifex. Again, they might do nothing more than scratch the carapace...
4. The Carnifex can only attack the Tomb Spyder, while the Scarabs can attack back if they are within 2" of the Spyder.
1. the carnifex can kill either the lascannon marine or any other marine within 2" of the lascannon marine.
keep in mind though that if the lascannon marine is in btb, and there is only one other marine in 2" then you've got to lose the lascannon to maintain squad coherency (if i've explained that properly)
2. i'm not sure as i've not got the marine codex. i'm pretty sure the librarian retains IC status even when with the squad. therefore in cc the librarian and his command squad will fight as 2 separate units. this means both units have to be in btb to attack the carnifex or the fex has to be in btb with both to attack both.
3. as both librarian and command squad are in btb then both can attack the fex. the fex can also attack both.
4. erm. i'm pretty sure the spider isn't an IC, so his squad can attack as well but can be attacked in return. this also probably means majority toughness and WS. hehe. crappy T spider.
edit. the rules generally are if you can hit them they can hit you.
Then yes the Librarian is the only one who may attack. It doesnt matter if he's with a command squad as they are two seperate units2) A Tyranid Carnifex (monstrous creature) assaults a space marine HQ squad lead by a librarian (independent character.) The Carnifex makes base contact with ONLY the librarian.A tomb spyder is not an independent character and thus the entire unit would get to strike4) A Carnifex (this example Carnifex is busy today) assaults a Necron Tomb Spider (also a monstrous creature) with 2 attached scarab swarms. The Carnifex is only in base contact with the Tomb Spider.
I understand your point about unit coherency, Tzar. That's definitely something to consider, as it's stated very clearly in the rules that you have to maintain unit coherency when removing casualties. If that lascannon guy were out at the end of a line of troops or something I could definitely see having to lose him.
I really question Archtype's interpretation, especially when it comes to #3. That brings up some interesting potential strategies. For example, if as the space marine player I were the one charging the Carnifex, why wouldn't I just move my cheapest model into base contact with it and then move everyone within 2" of him? That way, all those multiple attacks from the Carnifex could only kill one guy, and I could unload my entire unit's attacks on him without retaliation. (Just the first turn, of course, until I was required to pile in.) That just doesn't sound right to me.
4/ B - The Carnifex and Tomb Spyder can only trade blows, but the scarab swarms within 2" can attack the Carnifex.
As the new rules are written if you can attack, you can be attacked in return. The librarian is an IC and if he is the only model in btb, then he is the only model that fights. He is also the only model on his side that can be hit. Think of him as his own separate unit. The tomb spyder and the scarabs for a unit and are treated as such for the rest of the game. Majority toughness and armour apply. If the TS is the only model in BTB then the scarabs can still be removed as casualties.
Basically there is no way to set it up so that a unit (or model within a unit) can attack and be immune from being attacked. If you keep that in mind it becomes a lot easier to understand. ICs count as their own unit. Each model in a unit can chose to attack any unit with which it is engaged (in BTB or within 2" of a friendly model in his own unit in BT. If an IC isn't in BTB then he can't fight or be removed as a casualty.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity.
Casualties may be taken from any engaged enemy model in that unit, as long as removing the model will not break squad coherency. However, according to the current rules, a Tyranid Monstrous Creature may choose to allocate attacks to models in base-to-base contact, so the Tyranid player can technically choose to single out that Lascannon Marine.
An independant character is considered a separate unit from a squad it has joined.
Since a Carnifex, as a TMC, may allocate its attacks to any models in base-to-base contact, it can choose to split its attacks however it wants. However, it the Carnifex were any other type of unit, it would have to choose to send all of its attacks either to the the Librarian or the squad.
Once again, the Carnifex may allocate its attacks entirely to the Tomb Spider itself. If it chooses not to do so, or if the Carnifex were any other type of unit, casualties may come from any engaged model in to squad since the Spider isn't an independant character.
Ahhhhh... the light just went on. From Ostsol's post I'm getting the impression that there are some special rules in the Tyranid Codex that specifically allow Tyranid Monstrous Creatures to single out the lascannon marine in case "1." Is that correct?
I was trying to interpret it entirely from the monstrous creature and independent character rules in the Big Green Book. That's my one major beef with Warhammer in general... it's very difficult to know all the rules that might apply to a situation when you probably don't even HAVE all the rules
Yes as of the current codex ( soon to be replaced )
TMc are still allowed to allocate their attacks to specific models that are in contact with them.
This rule will most likely be removed in the new codex.