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Both Bioplasma and Mandi-blasters attack at an initiative higher than the model that is armed with them. In the codices it states that the model may still make its full attacks even if the enemy model in base-to-base contact is killed, which is inline with the 3rd Edition ruleset. However, the new edition basically says that a model may not fight if it is not engaged when its turn arrives. Given that the codex's explanation is for specific items, does its ruling apply? Or is it overidden by the general rule for initiative in the new rulebook?
Last time I checked the rule for initiative never changed, but even if they did the special rule for those weapons is still active. So yes you do get the full number of attacks per the rules for Mandi-blasters in the Eldar codex.
Second, it isnâ€™t even a special rule, just a clarification. A model gets its full number of attacks if it is in base to base when its initiative step comes along, not the initiative step for each weapon. So if a model had a initiative 1 attack and a initiative 10 attack (this doesnâ€™t happen, its just an example) when the step for 10 hits that models initiative step has happened, so he gets his full number of attacks even for his power fist.
It doesnâ€™t really matter because the examples of a model attacking on 2 different initiative steps are so rare and the rules are clarified in the codexs when it does happen.
The rules for initiative steps have changed, rather drastically
In 3rd edition (TAR) you were allowed to get your full number of attacks if you STARTED combat in btb, thus it didnt matter if you were I1. In 4th edition you only get to attack if you are in btb or in assist range of someone else in btb when your initiative comes up
Yes with mandiblasters you would still get your full number of attacks, however if you kill everyone in your kill zone then you'd get full attacks against 0 models. Treat them simply as another initiative step
Striking scorpions aren't affected by this much because you have a larger squad, but be careful with your MC's with tyranids because if you are only in btb with 1 model and you kill it then you arent going to be able to attack
Seeing how I only played casually in 3ed I am not 100% on the rules:blush:. Its funny that the rule was different in 3ed because that is how I was taught to play, having never owned a 3ed book, I simply did as I was told. Reading the 3ed now I realize how much I was cheated:realmad:, thats what you get for trusting people. Because of that I have memorized the 4ed book, and Iâ€™m certain that I have good grasp on the rules, so more people cheating me.
My two cents.
The tyranid codes states the a model with bio-plasma will make all it normal attacks even if the model its in base to base with is removed as a result of bio-plasma attacks.
But lets do a combat with genestealers and a Hive tyrant against marines. Tyranids charged.
Every-ones out in the open.
First step is the tyrants bio-plasma. At I 10. He hits, wounds and the marine player removes the only guy in base to base with the tyrant.
The stealers then fight at I 6.
Then the Tyrant again at I 5.
Then the marines at I 4.
Now IF the marine player is a canny guy, what you do is....
Remove the guy in base to base with the tyrant from any wounds caused by the genestealers.
Because the codex allows the tyrant to attack if the wound taking the model was from bio-plasma, not if the wound was caused at a different I step by a different creature.
Really tightringed rules usage but hey, most games are about creative rule reading/arguing.
Last edited by Da Springy Nids; April 26th, 2005 at 00:59. Reason: speeling
I hate to be nitpcky, but it can happen.... A techmarine in cover strikes at I10 for his normal attacks, then I1 for his servos.Originally Posted by Deep_inferno
but to the question, I think mandis would follow as though its two seperate models attacking, so if all enemies are removed from contact by the mandis and other combatants, then the regular SS can't attack.
I usually use this strat in the shooting phaze. Get rif of any chance of that SS unit of assaulting, then come back next turn, and my necrons are close enough for rapid fire...
I understand the Tyrant can still attack, but you're missing my point
It doesnt matter if he gets his FULL attacks there is no more kill zone. Who are you supposed to kill without a kill zone? Like i said, you get to attack your full number of times but you can't kill anyone
That wording was STRICTY for 3rd edition and is redundant in 4th edition because in order to get your full # of attacks in 3rd you needed to be in BTB (hence the wording), now you dont
To reiterate my original point, you cant kill what isn't in your kill zone
The Liberian would count as I 10, ok but wouldnâ€™t his servitors count as being in cover too, therefore counting at I10? Second arenâ€™t the servitors are separate models and count as such in close combat? Iâ€™m not terribly well read, not having the codex, but thatâ€™s the way I interpreted the rules.
Next, mandis kill things within 2in of the model, and the normal cc attacks kill everything within 2in of the model, so you stop making attacks when everything within 2in is dead, so who cares? The only way your attacks are negated in 4ed cc is if everything in 2in is dead, in which case who cares, thatâ€™s the best possible outcome and you are obviously kicking ass. :lol:
a) He meant a techmarine with servoharness.
b) Not true. Here's an example of how this would work:
Necrons vs striking scorpions (unlikely but low initative so I can demonstrate)
Necrons have 4 models in BtB and an additional 6 models in 2" range.
Striking scorpions fire off the mandiblasters at I10 (even though it's a shooting attack it counts as a CC attack and therefore is I10) and 4 models fail their armor save. The necron player could chose to remove the 4 models in BtB. The next Initative step is reached which would be the striking scorpion's initative. Because there are no models in BtB the striking scorpions do NOT get their normal attacks, nor do the necrons. The striking scorpions have at this point won combat but cannot sweeping advance the necrons if they fail their morale check.
to Mad Hatters example
1) oops, miss read, but wouldnâ€™t his servoharness strike at I10 for being in cover? meh its not important must be a special rule, we are getting off topic.
2) it states right in the Eldar codex that you still get full attacks even if the models are removed, so in Mad Hatters example the Scorps would keep killing things (within their 2in kill zone)
3) This is just a clarification as if Iâ€™m not mistaken in 4ed (currently cursing myself for leaving my 4ed book with a friend) you get full attacks when within 2in, so the scorps, or any other squad in the game with similar rules would keep killing in the Mad Hatters example. This makes a big difference, it makes those stupid guardsmen a lot more powerful in cc.
Edited to clarify that I am replying to Mad Hatters example in which the killing stops because BtB contact is lost, which can no longer happen under the new rules.
Last edited by Deep_inferno; April 26th, 2005 at 17:58.