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Heres a simple one for you. Common sense dictates the obvious answer, but when did common sense ever apply to WH40k rules?
I fire my S6 assault cannon at a multi-wound T3 creature (lets say a scarab swarm). I roll a 6 to hit. The rules state the shot unit automatically 'takes a wound'. Does the scarab swarm get insta-killed or not?
This came up with my friend, he pointed out that the rule says ' wound is automatically inflicted', and so the shot does not use strength. My point is in that scenario a rending railgun is now incapable of insta-killing a multi-wound T2 creature if it rolls a 6 to hit.
I decided to present this one to the jury..
Last edited by samurai_socks; January 4th, 2016 at 14:23. Reason: DELETED.
As stated above, it still has a strength value. If it were strength X sure, but it's S6
Now, remember. The autowound comes before you take armor saves (Not like the scarabs get any) so you would instant kill one and THEN the rest of the assault cannon hits would go onto the remaining scarabs. Which prevents the opponent from taking more wounds on that rended scarab
Indeed, this is the way I saw things, and the way common sense dictates. The problem is people will argue anything if they feel they can twist the rules to their advantage.
On a related note, what would happen in close combat if a model with S6 had a weapon with an attribute such as "wounds on a 4+" and struck a T3 multi-wound model? Unlike a Rending attack, such a weapon never uses the strength of its wielder for any purpose at all. Would it still cause an instant-kill?
Yeah id say it would because if it inflicts a wound thats strength is double of the creatures T then the rule says its instant killed.Originally Posted by Ostsol
And for the first post id say the same thing
It does not matter how the model is wounded (what roll or special rule), simply that it is wounded by a weapon/attack with Str high enough to inflict Instant Death to the model.
"The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."
Keep in mind, instantkill shots still only inflict one wound. So when rending "automatically deals a wound," that's enough to instantkill. Similarly, in close combat, an instantkill only counts for 1 wound -- you didn't actually deal all of the wounds to the creature, just 1.
As for weapons, there are multiple ways things could happen. If, in CC, a weapon says, "deals a wound on X+", then the model's strength is used, and the "X+" is always what it wounds on -- never more and never less. If a weapon read "Deals a wound on a 4+", then 4+ will always be what it wounds on. For instantkill purposes, the model's strength is used. At ranged, the weapon's strength is used for instantkills.
Conversely, some have rules that read "will never have a worse to-wound roll that X+", in which case the to-wound roll can be lower than "X+", but never higher. If a weapon read, "Will never need more than a 4+ to wound," then, a 4+ would always wound, and, if the model's strength was higher than the target's toughness, a 2+ or 3+ might also wound. Again, the model's strength is used for instantkill purposes, or the weapon's strength at range.
Next, there are weapons that "strike at strength x." These weapons always strike at the strength stated, never more and never less, and it is irrelevant what the wielder's strength is. They then follow the normal wounding chart in the BGB using strength "x." Strength "x" is also used for instantkill purposes. Thus, if a weapon read "Strikes at strength 6," they would strike at strength 6, whether the model's strength is larger, smaller, or equal to 6, and they would have the potential to instantkill T3 models. Additionally, it is debated as to whether furious charge still adds one to weapons like this. Would a weapon that strikes at S6 always strike at S6 or, when charging with FC, would it strike at S6+1? Personally, I think it's S6, since these weapons *always* strike at strength 6, but it is debatable.
Finally, there are weapons that modify a model's strength. They read something like, "Double the model's strength," or "Add +X or -X to a model's strength." These weapons depend on a model's strength to determine their final value, and the modified value is the value used for instantkill purposes. Remember the order of operations from math? Well, that applies here, too. Multiplication occurs before you do any of the addition. So if you have a weapon that reads, "Double the model's strength," and the model has S4, then the weapon strikes as if it was S8. If the model also benefits from Furious Charge or another ability, then it would be S9 when charging -- double his strength to S8, and after doubling, add 1 for FC.
Probably a little overkill, but that should cover most weapons. Remember, one wound of instantkill strength is all that is needed to outright kill a multiwound model.
Actually, Sithlet is WRONG.
Instant-kill is just that- instant-KILL, not instant-wound. The thought is that by striking something with strength that is twice the toughness, you simply obliterate the target, wounds and all. It's like hitting a human with a nuke- he may be tough, but he is still a pile of ashes at the end, regardless of how many hits he can normally take.
I thought that this was pretty well explained in the BGB, but obviously not.
As far as the scarab swarm, all 3 are dead. End of story.
Hope that helps.
Actually he is right. Your both saying the same thing, its just confusing because he was trying to point out that while the model would die, it has only suffered one wound.Originally Posted by Sithlet
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