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So, for units to regroup, they must have half of their forces intact.
What this means for larger units, lets say 20 , that means if the unit has nine models, and is falling back, it can't regroup. That is a big drawback to taking larger units, of course it may be intended to balance a large units "ablative armor" advantage with a smaller units advantages, such as spread deployments to minimize template coverage etc.
However, are they're any gameplay benefits for this rule in addition to those?
I think the rule is ok for squads without leader, sarge, exarch, or IC models in it, but for squads with leader units wouldn't a 25% model intact to regroup rule work better?
This rule just seems to waste many models for an unsupported arbitrary minimum model count, what are some more supportive arguments in favor of this...
Last edited by Thrynexx; May 5th, 2005 at 16:57.
Tau Hunter Cadre, Eldar Saim Hann, Eldar Ranger, Kroot Mercs
Armies that ignore the less than 50 regroup rule
1) All space marines good or bad(chaos) . Marines always regroup unless they are within 6 of a enemy.
2) IG within 12 inches of a leader that has ID ( they can regroup if follow the other rules)
3) Orks can mobs up.They fall back and join another unit.
4) Nids that are within 12 inches of Hive tryant or warriors do not care
That is all the ones off top of my head. I petty sure there are more.
So the less than 50% is not as bad as you think it is.
Bonded tau can also regroup. My common opponents often complain about this rule because it seems to them that every army has away around it (Except when he proxies his marines to Necron, and then he feels cheated) But I know if I saw half of my closest friends die it doesn't matter what the sarge says, I am out of there...I guess I am not a battle hardened space marine and I know fear...
I thought chaos doesn't have ATSKNF (and they shall know no fear) that most of them had high leadership/fearless?
armies that don't worry about it.
-chaos undivided (re-rollable moral chacks, when are you going to fall back?)
-marines (i don't think cursed foundings can though)
-certain guard squads (aforementioned ID)
-certain tau squads
there's probably stuff i've missed out.
the rule is fine as it is. large units do not have a disadvantage, if anything they have an advantage over smaller squads in that you need to kill more models before they can't regroup whereas a minumum size squad can afford to lose a lot less before it has to fall back.
While that is true,this is true as well, a unit of six models who is down to two loses only the points value of six models when forced to retreat off board(no regroup if under half of squad), opposed to a unit of twenty models losing the points value of all twenty. If they are the same point value, the larger group loses more points.Originally Posted by TzarNikolai
Here is an example of the cons of this rule for a big unit:
Six models attack a unit of 8 models on the charge thinking they have a good opportunity to win. However, they lose 4 units and must fall back and can't regroup. The points value of all six are lost.
Twenty models of less CC prowess, attack eight models, they lose eleven, if they are forced to fall back they can't regroup so the unit is out. The nine models would still be effective in many CC situations against smaller squads or in combined assaults. They are now wasted because of the rule, even though nine strong, being larger at half size then many full smaller units.
Nine models would be a strong unit on a charge against many squads, yet in this situation are out of the game.
This rule can in unusual situations give an advantage to smaller units. It depends on the numbers in each squad: If two units of six models attack one unit of twelve, the two six model units need to lose eight models total to be under the regroup minimum, whereas the twelve model unit only needs to lose seven. However, with two seven model units atacking a fourteen model unit, they both have to lose eight. Of course this is not common, as it onlyu applies for exactly equal numbers of models total in differing size units.
Heres a quick sum of good and bad of large unit/squads:
Fill out troop selection with max models
Can waste a lot of points if loses CC-resulting in some large leftover squad models that aren't used for shooting or CC.
Have to lose less models to be under min regroup rule in equal model/diff size unit CC
Tau Hunter Cadre, Eldar Saim Hann, Eldar Ranger, Kroot Mercs
Those nine models aren't wasted because of the rule. They're wasted because their owner did something stupid. This example is deceptive, anyway, because any army that has business sending a unit like that into c.c. to get slaughtered (i.e., tyranids or orks) has a way around the fifty-percent rule and is unlikely to miss the troops if they run off the table, anyway.Originally Posted by ThrynexxThis isn't giving the advantage to smaller units. If the group of twelve kills four enemies, the enemies' troop strength is likely to drop to half of where it started. That is, if they can kill four models in a single unit, that unit is likely to run off, so there are only six of that player's models left in combat. On the other hand, if the unit of twelve loses four, it's still got eight models in combat. Thus, it takes more wounds to completely scare off the smaller units, but the larger unit will be inflicting more wounds and suffering fewer.This rule can in unusual situations give an advantage to smaller units. It depends on the numbers in each squad: If two units of six models attack one unit of twelve, the two six model units need to lose eight models total to be under the regroup minimum, whereas the twelve model unit only needs to lose seven.
thank you and good night
Originally Posted by Thrynexx
well if you think about it if 6 models charge the enemy they're probably going to be rock hard assault troops which will cost a lot of points. these can include marines of all sorts, chaos marines, eldar aspects etc. however if 20 models assault the emeny they'll most likely have an average points cost of about 9-10 pt per model. the most i've ever used personally is 16 man 12pt gaunt squads. how many times have you seen a squad of 20 marines? a large unit falling back will probably have the same cost of a small elite unit falling back. you most likely won't be losing out on points (i admit there are situations that involve large squads of expensive models, these are rare though)
also how many times have you actually wanted to fill out all of your troops choices? if you're orks or nids i can see how it may happen but marines? youll never want to fill all 6 slots so you won't want to max out squad sizes, especially since after 2000 points you get a whole new force organisation chart to play with.
also when you say 2 six man squads chargng into cc against a 12 man squad you forget that a 6 man squad is much easier to wipe out through shooting (or now that we're on topic, to reduce to below half strength and force a moral check). what is most likely (just for fun lets assume 4 wounds on one of the 6 man squads) is one 6 man squad charging an 8 man squad (both having taken 4 shooting wounds and one 6 man squad being forced to fall back)...