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Here's something to chew on.
Noise Marines armed with Frag Grenades assault a unit in cover. Who strikes when? It's either;
1) Both strike at Initiative 10 like normal, or;
2) Noise Marines strike first, then the defenders.
Option one assumes that the Warp Scream effects the basic profile of the defender, which the cover bonus over rides. Option two assumes the Warp Scream effects the cover bonus.
Ooh, a tricky one. I would go with option 2. Cover gives the defenders I10 but the Warp Scream reduces it to I9.
My reason for this is that the BGB says that units in cover normally fight with I10 and we know that grenades are able to counter the effects of cover, so why not other abilities? The BGB provides the general rule which the Codex then modifies with the rules for Warp Scream as this is how the BGB and Codices are supposed to work together.
I would suggest option 1 is the intended rule.
Doom sirens are pointless otherwise, and actualy less useful.
When this came up with me my opponent argued that even though I charged him with frag grenades he went first. If I didn't charge then he would charge me with frags (also in cover) and then go first.
We just ended up rolling off for it as niether of us could find evidence that specifies one way or the other. It really seems like a loophole abuse to me though, as the codex is 3rd ed and cover worked differentaly then.
Last edited by xrix1; September 26th, 2005 at 19:14.
Exactly! What would be the point of the Doom Siren in that case, other than having a Flamer template weapon? It's actually worse to take than Frags, since it forces the fight to happen at initiative sequence. Against high init creatures, such as Genestealers, you'll end up going last, instead of at the same time (atleast).
The situation can get even uglier if you throw Furious Charge into the mix. Say an enemy charges Noise Marines in cover with Frags. Does the Furious Charge bonus apply before, or after the Warp Scream? Since stats can't go above 10, makes a big difference.
D'oh! I guess it's time I went back and read the Codex from cover to cover again.
RE: Doom Siren, does anyone else find it funny how it says that the model with the Doom Siren strikes in initiative order but doesn't mention enemies attacking it being similarly affected... (I only have the second printing so this may have been changed)
Well, back in 3rd edition, it made perfect sense, and the doom siren was a good piece of equipment. Then they had to go and mess around with the rules, and now it's all sorta kinda of screwed up.Originally Posted by Lleu
I would think that option 2 would be too over powering. Imagine a Strength 8 prince with seven attacks that's guaranteed a first turn charge, and guaranteed to strike first in all but a few rare situations, for only 147 points.
I agree more woith option 2. Assuming one squad is in cover, and a noise marine squad is assaulting with frags, the noise marines would strike first (I9). But go a ahead and throw in the doom siren as it dosn't affect the equation. The frag grenades take precedent over the doom siren as the greandes give a higher iniative.
Take the powerfist example. If you take daemonic strength, it dosn't give you strength 10, as you multiply, add, then subtract.
But if anyone has ventured over to the bolter and chainsword forums to the chaos area, you will see this is a hotley contested issue. So until there is a FAQ from GW, its still really in limbo. But Mathematicaly speaking, warp scream should always lower enemy initaive by one.
"Dare to be Naive"
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Technically, I believe the rules seem to favour solution 2. I had, rather shamefully, considered using this loophole myself. But I don't generally use many frag grenades.
But it's definately something to discuss and hammer out with a Slannesh opponent before you play them, because it is totally outside the spirit of the rules.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; September 27th, 2005 at 01:52.
I still am firmly of the opinion that the warp scream would drop your I by one, and then you get put to 10 for being in cover, although I am mearly interpreting an unclear rule.
Is there any consensis on how furious charge would affect option 2?
If I had a model charge Noise marines in cover, and my Init was dropped to 9, but I had furious charge, would my Init go back up to 10?
The reason I don't like option 2 is it seems to complicate things, and add more questions and special cases, rather than just keeping the cover rules intact.