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This is a situation that almost happened, and we (myself and my friends who were playing) were wondering how this situation would get worked out. (Luckily stuff died from shooting so we avoided it, but still an interesting question.
There's some death guard in the woods, three guys from squad 1(the front two have plasma guns, the guy in the back is a champion), the champion from squad 2, and the half base is a chaos lord who joined squad 2. All of the death guard squads are within two inches of each other. Outside of the woods is an Eldar avatar and what is left of the court of the young king, a dire avenger exarch with defend and distract.
Can they (the avatar and exarch) charge the chaos lord and not also engage the champion from squad 2? Does the lord count as seperate unit in terms of being assaulted or only for the purpose of allocating wounds?
If the eldar charge the champion in squad 2, does the chaos lord also get to fight? What about squad one? If the Avatar is moved first into base to base contact, who does the exarch move into contact with?
Unfortunetly it gets even more confusing once the attacks start. Do the avatar and exarch count as one unit in assault or two units consisting of an avatar and the exarch?
If they count as seperate units, does that allow the exarch to use his defend power? If he uses defend does he go before or after a powerfist? Who can he use distract on, only the person in base to base contact or against anyone in that unit? If he was in base to base with the champion of squad 2 can he use distract on the chaos lord?
The chaos lord has a man reaper, how many attacks does he get?
Edit: One last thing, how do you figure out who loses the assault? Are they subject to no retreat? How do you figure out the scores for assault with multiple units and characters? If they're subject to no retreat, who takes the wound(s)?
Last edited by jtm; December 13th, 2005 at 22:56.
I can read now!
I am working from memory, without the rulebook, so no promises... but... actually, many of your questions are moot because the avatar and exarch have no choice here, assuming your diagram is highly accurate. When two units are within charge range, a charging unit has two choices:
1) It can declare a charge against both units. Looking at your diagram, if the eldar do this, the avatar (which is closest) charges the foremost member of unit 1 (who is closest) and then the exarch (who is then the closest model still to be moved) charges the unit 2 champion (who is the closest enemy model still unengaged) if he can reach him, or if not piles on to the same guy with the avatar resulting in combat with unit 1 only.
2) They can declare a charge against either unit 1 or unit 2. If they declare a charge against unit 1 only, the avatar would need to charge exactly as above - but this would be illegal since it would put him within 1" of the unit 2 champion, who is in a unit that he is not charging. If they were to charge unit 2 only, he would end up within 1" of the foremost model in unit 1, which would be in a unit he is not charging and is illegal. So this is not an option in this case.
Remember the rules for moving during a charge very closely. They are almost univerally ignored by players, because it is annoying to follow them to the letter during play, but they resolve almost every charging question I have ever seen asked about charges. The way they are written leaves you ZERO choice once you have chosen which units to charge... the models are moved according to a very specific algorythm that could be followed by a computer without any human input.
Note that even if the eldar choose option 1 above, it results in the dubious situation of the avatar being with 1" of the unit 2 champion even though nobody in his unit is in B2B with a member of unit 2. But if I recall correctly the wording is that they may not move to within 1" of a model in a unit which they are not "charging". The fact that they do not actually end up in B2B should be irrelevant, although the rules do not explicitly say so.
I can think of one slightly different rules analysis which is probably also reasonable. This would be that models must follow the shortest *legal* path when charging, which would let you charge one of these units and not the other by just shifting the final position of the charging models slightly to outside 1" of the uncharged unit... but I do not think it changes the result that much in this case. Anyway you slice it the chaos independant character is not going to be in B2B after the charge.
In this situation that can't happen. The lord has joined S2 and is not the closest model. You must always first contact the closest model in the unit you assault.Originally Posted by jtmThe Lord uses his own weapon skill and will never have wound "allocated" to him in Close Combat.Originally Posted by jtmOnly if the Exarch gets into close combat with him. Probably not.Originally Posted by jtmIf the Eldar assaults S2 and the Exarch is too far away to reach the unengaged models in the unit (the Lord), he may assault S1 if he can do so while staying in squad coherency with the rest of his unit (the Avatar).Originally Posted by jtmDepends on which squads the Eldar assault.Originally Posted by jtmTwo units.Originally Posted by jtmYes.Originally Posted by jtmNobody would be in combat with the Lord anyway, so I do not see how this applies.Originally Posted by jtmDoubling comes before adding bonuses for charging, demonic mutation etc.Originally Posted by jtmThe one who scores more unsaved wounds than the opponent wins the assault. If this is the Eldar or the Avatar is dead he may get to inflict extra wounds on the opponent due to outnumbering.Originally Posted by jtmBoth parties are fearless I presume, so none will retreat, unless the Avatar is dead.Originally Posted by jtmAdd all unsaved wounds. The side with most unsaved wounds inflicted just lost.Originally Posted by jtmThis was the best question. If the Eldar lost and is subject to no retreat, that means the Avatar is alive and they will not be outnumbered. If they lost and the Avatar is dead then the only possible target is the Dire Avenger Exarch.Originally Posted by jtm
If the Chaos Space Marines lost then I believe you use the rules for saves: Majority save first and so on.
Alright, thanks guys that clears things up. We had started to refer to that situation as the "assault from hell" as we weren't too sure how to work it. We were probably tossing in fantasy rules as well knowing us. (The multiple charge rules from fantasy where a unit one inch away or less is also considered to be charged and all that.)
I can read now!