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I have been playing a Space Wolves army with the Counter Attack skill. It is unclear to me what exactly the difference is between counter attacking and piling in. It seems that at the end of an assault all units still engaged in close combat MUST pile in, whereas with Counter Attack you have to move all your folks that can IMMEDIATELY into base to base contact.
If you are a counter attack army, I read that you must immediately move your men into assault position. This could lead to more folks being involved in the current assault, and could be a big negative. If the folks attacking you get more +1 attacks because they are assaulting you, plus if they have a better intitiative, this could lead to more +1 attacks in nasty situations vs pile in?
What generates this question is the following scenario: Space Wolves Grey Hunters unit attacked by Dark Eldar Incubi. Only a couple of Grey Hunters were able to be reached by the leading edge of the Incubi. Because of the Counter Attack option the Grey Hunters moved forward to assault and got mangled by the much higher initiative/power weapon wielding Incubi.
My question is specifically:
If you have the Counter Attack skill then I read that you MUST move your folks IMMEDIATELY into base to base contact. Does this give all folks who attack you the additional +1 attacks whereas previously they might not have been able to reach you? Or is there some arcane rule that I haven't seen that says you only get +1 attack if you can reach them WITHOUT Counter Attack? In other words could only say 2 Incubi have attacked my Grey Hunters with the +1 attack and anything that I Counter Attacked with is attack<>attack, or am I flat our screwed in that situation?
The implication of the rules is that because my Space Wolves are an assault oriented army I ran up against one of the few units that can kick their butt and sorry, but that is what happens. I assume from fluff and implication that this is correct, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some hidden detail.
Thanks in advance for your kind replies, oh experts...
(Working only from what I've seen my friend do with his Space Wolves...)
So far as I know, the Counter Attack ability means that when a unit gets assaulted, they immeditaly move any unengaged models into BtB contact with the assaulters. As this happens on the turn the attackers charged, every attacker in range gains the +1 attack bonus for charging. So in the case of your Grey Hunters being attacked by Incubi, all the Incubi in range after the Counter Attack move is made would benefit from the charge bonus.
Again, I'm not a Space Wolf player, but that's how my friend explained the rule to me.
Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!
-Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.
yeah the rulebook is pretty clear on the fact that you must use the counter charge. Also everyone who charged gets the +1 attack, unengaged models still have it they just don't get to use it, counter attack just make more of the enemy engaged, so too bad for you. Though DE Incubi and stealers are probobly the only things this would be bad against.
Last edited by Bugs_n_Orks; May 15th, 2006 at 18:08.
The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed
Interesting . . . as a Trust Your Battle-Brothers army, I haven't thought of this scenario.Originally Posted by GaryAndSean
The upside and, I believe, intended benefit of Counterattack is that you get more guys in there as well to start swinging. Of course, as you pointed out, if your opponent has a better initiative, that might not be the greatest thing in the world . . . but such is the price for believing that the best defense is a good offense.
However, I just read the rule for counter-attack and it says treat it like an assault (except no +1 attack) and the rule for an assault says you have to move your full assault distance (6") to engage any previously unengaged models . . . so basically to answer your question, yes that means you will probably involve more of the enemy than you'd like to.
HOWEVER, since counterattack does not happen simultaneously with the original assault, then I don't see why those enemy models that YOU engaged by your counterrattack would get any +1 attacks. Technically, they did not assault, so they wouldn't get the benefit. Yes, they are locked into combat as part of the unit, but they themselves would not be involved in the assault except that YOU, in essence, assaulted THEM. So you don't get the +1 attack because of the rules of counterattack, but it has neve been a rule that you get a +1 attack WHEN assaulted, so they wouldnt' get it either.
Hopefully that helped. :-)
"There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin
You should re-check the rules for getting to the bonus attack (page 40 of the rulebook). Also, take into account that you count up the number of attacks a unit gets just before the attacks are rolled. As such, IMHO the charging models that are newly engaged into combat due to the Counter Attack do get their bonus attack because they are among the models that "launched the close combat that turn". Basically, they charged and that is the only prerequisite for getting the bonus attack.Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags
Why do the survivors remain anonymous -- as if cursed -- while the dead are revered? Why do we cling to what we lose while we ignore what we still hold?
Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives.
--Duiker, "Deadhouse Gates"
Counter Attack is a double-edged sword. Against assault-centered units, yeah, it can be very bad. But against units that are assaulting purely to gain that extra attack but have mediocre combat stats, CA can be very devestating.
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