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yes- they can represent them
no, they are only heavy bolters
A friend and I were playing a game of 40k- he was chaos space marines, i was regular space marines. Everything was going fine until he whipped out his 4-lascannon squad, which i had heard him talk about because of a game he played against a mutual friend- who uses Tau- last week. The Tau player was not familiar with space marine wargear and had no issues. I am, and I did.
you see, the problem was that his lascannon squad was not armed with lascannons. It wasclearly armed with 4 heavy bolters. I pointed this out, and at first he did not believe me (this was his secong game with chaos, I don't blame him for not being familiar with the wargear), however i soon proved that they were. At that point the debate came down to whether one was allowed to use heavy bolters as lascannons. I pointed out WYSIWYG, however, i was unable to locate it in the rulebook and so we allowed that he was allowed to use his heavy bolters as lascannons, provided i was also allowed to break the same rule.
after the game, i foung WYSIWYG- in the codex, not the rule book.
Anyway, the wording of the rule has caused further debate. You see, it says "All weapons and wargear must be represented on the models". He now claims that his heavy bolters 'represent' lascannons.:wacko:
So, I would like your opinions on the debate. If anyone can point out a GW ruling or other source that can confirm the debate, either way, please link/direct me to it. Thanks!
fear the smurfs
Alright that guy is a nut job. The only time I would let someone get away with that is if they just made a new list and were trying it out before they bought the models. But serriously, if you let him get away with this little thing then he will find many other rules to bend and break.
So, yes your right, he's a idiot. :sleep:
EDIT: Thats just tacky, generally lazy and poor. Give him a warning, and if he tries to pull that one again, simply find someone else to play until he stops being annoying.
If it's a friendly game -- course they can. Long as he tells you in advance. Hell, coke cans can stand in for drop pods. The point of friendlies is to be able to try things out surely, like house rules, suggested mods from the GW site (Space Hulk Kill Team or 40K in 40 Minutes), home-cooked codices etc.
If he does it every battle for a significant period, then people should be starting to ask him "isn't it time you got some lascannon models" -- but still in a friendly way though right? Gently poking fun is much better than going all rules-lawyer. Start calling him Magic Bolter Boy or something.
In a tournament, nah, he'd never get away with it.
Remember though that weapons change over time too, I have some Rogue Trader-era plastic Marines where the HBs and LCs (all shoulder mounted) look much more alike than they do now.
as per operon - in a tourney or official game this would get thrown out as not legal, however, you started your statement with "A friend of mine..." and for friendlies - fine, particularly if he is trying before buying, however if he is still going it a year later I would get a little pushy
Everything you have been told is a lie!
For tourneys, no.
For friendlies, yes if you are forewarned, as they can't be mistaken for anything else.
That's why, I think, the wording of 'representing' is intentionally ambiguous.
Last edited by Jon Quixote; May 25th, 2006 at 15:37.
Cervantes: In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd.
It sounds to me like your friend actually thought the HBs were Las Cannons. If that were the case, I'd be even more lenient with him about WYSIWIG. It's not like he started the game saying "I've got 2 HBs and 2 LCs in this squad, but I only have HB models" And then proceeded to play musical chairs when it came time to remove models. He had 4 of the same model (so there really was no way to confuse who actually had what) and he stated before the game that he had 4 Las Cannons.
If it had been me, I'd have let it slide after pointing out the difference between Las and Bolter. In fact, I'd make him continue to field the HBs as LCs until he had 4 models ready to replace them.
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I'm going to go against the flow on this one. I would argue that, even in tournament play, as long as he is internally consistent there should be no problem. In other words, if he uses only HBs as lascannons and nothing else, and nothing else as lascannons either, then he should be fine. The wysiwyg rule is to prevent confusion, if he is consistent then there is no ambiguity that the HB models are infact lascannons.
Having said that he would go a long way towards helping his case if he were to do some small conversion work. Perhaps adding a battery pack and cables or something. Furthermore if he wanted to change what the models represent on a game by game basis I would probably have a problem with that.
Interestingly, I have two different castings of scatter lasers in my army which often causes confusion to new opponents. I have to fully point out that "anything that looks like this OR this is a scatter laser". So while my army is technically wysiwyg I run in to clarity problems anyway. Oh well C'est la vie I suppose.
"It was a magnificent display of trained and disciplined valour, and its assault failed of success because dead men can advance no further"Originally Posted by rat of vengence
-refering to the Royal Newfoundland Regiment at Beaumont-Hamel after they took 90% casualties in the assault
Its what ever you are comfortable with and as long as he doesn't mind you pulling the same kind of thing. Proxing models is fine especially if you don't have the money to buy everything you want. That said a proxied model should always represent the same thing, so Heavy Bolters are always las cannons, some heavy bolters couldn't be missile launchers or Heavy bolters, even if they are in different squads.
Still he should really get the proper models as it make things a lot easier
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"Nietzsche is dead" God- 1900
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Uh....Out of all the years I been here I saw alot of idiotic topics in my time and this is probably one of the many idiotic topics I came across here since my time on LO. Why the feck would some person let you use a Heavy Bolter to represent a lascannon?? Use common sense. No one will allow this. Especially at Gamesdays etc.
The Psychotic, Soda Addicted, Level-Headed Christian Friendly, Sexy Japanese Girl of LO
What I find hilarious is how close the poll is. We seriously need a hall of fame for posts like these. WYSIWYG does not mean do whatever you want and make the weapons what you want. If he does that it isn't WYSIWYG.
Last edited by mephistophales; May 25th, 2006 at 18:28.
Ask yourself why in the world would you trust a win loss record? Playing them yourself is the only way to tell.
The true joy in the game is playing down to the last model, no matter the odds.