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  1. #1
    Senior Member Jhagadurn's Avatar
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    Shooting through or over vehicles...

    From the LO FAQ Page: (it is closed, so I couldn't post there)


    Quote Originally Posted by Anacron
    Can a larger tank behind a smaller tank see over it?

    Yes. The only times you use the height categories are when you are trying to draw line of sight over either Area Terrain or an ongoing combat. If you are not shooting over Area Terrain, or an ongoing combat, then you always use actual Line of Sight, and the height categories are irrelevant. Remember that you draw line of sight from a vehicle directly from the weapon mount. (p20/21)
    .

    Ok, I disagree with this - the BGB is vauge on this yes, but I believe there is an answer in following their term similarities.

    Ok, the BGB says that vehicles, vehicle wrecks and MC's block line of sight, friend or foe, but a line of sight may be drawn OVER or PAST such models, but not THROUGH them.

    Also, on page 7 of the BGB, it specifically assigns each model type a hieght, and I quote 'To determine whether troops can see over obstructions.'

    It goes on to assign infantry a size of 2, and vehicles a size of 3.

    So, to argue my point, I would say that no, the size of models is not only for area terrain and ongoing combat. I think that it is also appliable into a regular phase of shooting.

    Tarzen once used this example on me, and I think that now I can fight my side of the arguement.

    On a perfectly flat battle field, can a devastator marine fire a lascannon over a rhino into the Dreadnaught behind it? My answer - no. Both vehicles are level 3, so the dreadnaught is perfectly safe behind his rhino friend. But, you say, why does the BGB say 'OVER or PAST such objects as vehicles and vehicle wrecks'?

    Well, I think they ment it as this: Take that normal, ideal playing field, in the same situation. Now put the dreadnaught on a level 1 hill, a little raise. Now, you can draw a line of sight over the tank, even though they are both level 3, the devastator can draw a line of sight over or past the tank, but not through the rhino's little 'bubble'

    what doe you guys think?


    Jhagadurn out. :ninja:

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  3. #2
    Airborne Mastershake's Avatar
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    479 (x8)

    Makes sens, I like the arguement. It seems like it would be too random and clumsy to use "actual line of sight" when determining if one vehicle could see over another especially when dealing with models that are heavily converted or models like the Ork battlewagon that simply don't exist.
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  4. #3
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    476 (x8)

    GW backed down in WD a bit on that soon after 4th ed came out. For vehicle's and MC's you use a model's eye view to determine LoS - this stops players hiding land raiders behind rhinos - you can clearly see the land raider over the smaller rhino!

    Or even worse, a couple of Ork traks shielding a battlewagon.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
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  5. #4
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    The book quite clearly says use model's eye view unless you have those two things occur. The only reason regular models are given sizes is because they have to interact with area terrain. IE a Size 3 beastie on the far side of a size 2 Area Terrain is still targetable, but size 2 infantry 7 inches in on a size 2 Area Terrain are not.

    Think of it this way: Not all size 3 objects are created equal. A land raider will block LOS to me 2nd edition screamer killers, but not because they're both size three, but because the model is so big.

    Does the rule make sense? No, not necessarily. Is it the way the game is played? Most definitely.

  6. #5
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    The problem with using models eye view is all sorts of wacky things start to happen. Like what about models who are on tall, decorative bases? what about size 2 models that are way taller than most size 2 models (I.E tyranid warriors)? If I model my carnifex to be standing on his tipoes and stretching upwards will he be better than if I model it to be stooping down to eat a dead guardsman of the floor? This is why I totally agree w the origional post.


    yes, you can see a land raider over a rhino, but if you try to shoot at it you will probably just end up hitting the rhino.

    The whole point of having different size categories is that everything in one category is assumed to be the same hight for LOS purposes.

  7. #6
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    476 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by InnuitFireman
    The problem with using models eye view is all sorts of wacky things start to happen. Like what about models who are on tall, decorative bases?
    How many huge ornate bases are you likely to see? Not many. If that is the case discuss it with your opponent before the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by InnuitFireman
    what about size 2 models that are way taller than most size 2 models (I.E tyranid warriors)?
    Unimportant - you could still shoot through them to units behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by InnuitFireman
    If I model my carnifex to be standing on his tipoes and stretching upwards will he be better than if I model it to be stooping down to eat a dead guardsman of the floor? This is why I totally agree w the origional post.
    :rolleyes: Now you're just being pedantic.

    Read pg20 under "Line of Sight" - it quite clearly states you can draw a line of sight over vehicles. So if you can see something over another vehicle, you can shoot it. If you've modelled a crouching carnifex, then you've got to live with the consequences. The rules mean that if you have rhino B hiding behind rhino A, you can't see Rhino B since you can't draw a Line of Sight over Rhino A (or through Rhino A by definition).

    However, if you have a Land Raider behind Rhino A, you can draw a LoS from your unit to the Land Raider over Rhino A.

    Only if a unit behind a vehicle/MC is of a smaller physical size or catergorisation would you not be able to see it. They are not as blanket as you like to think they are, and help more with terrain than anything else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
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  8. #7
    Senior Member Jhagadurn's Avatar
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    hmm... I still don't buy it.... Can I get some page references and some white dwarf references? I have yet to see this white dwarf.....

    Also 2 more things - you measure from the weapon mount in 4th edition. So that totally screws up a carnifex who has to shoot from his arm height, and will never be able to shoot over a tank, where as a predator gets to aim from the turret which is way up in the air compared to a carnifexes arms.... This rule is stupid, and just serves to support who ever wants to use it.

    Now, also, if this rule is true, and you can see the top of a dreadnaught say, over a rhino.... you cannot see more than 50% of it... just the top 25% or so. So, does that give you obscured target, or what?
    TSg.t Zakarius Clay
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  9. #8
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    Vehicles check range and LOS from the weapon mount. Monstrous Creatures aren't vehicles.

  10. #9
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhagadurn
    hmm... I still don't buy it.... Can I get some page references and some white dwarf references? I have yet to see this white dwarf.....
    As I say, pg20 BGB. Quite clearly states you can draw LoS over vehicles. I can't remember the WD no, but one example there pictures a daemon prince "hiding" behind a rhino, but still visible due to direct LoS. I know that's not really that good...but it exists...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jhagadurn
    Now, also, if this rule is true, and you can see the top of a dreadnaught say, over a rhino.... you cannot see more than 50% of it... just the top 25% or so. So, does that give you obscured target, or what?
    It does. See pg 69 under "Obscured Targets" 3rd paragraph.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  11. #10
    Son of LO tarzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelmen78
    Vehicles check range and LOS from the weapon mount. Monstrous Creatures aren't vehicles.
    Nope, not true. You check LOS from weapon mount, range from closest edge of the base or hull.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhagadurn
    hmm... I still don't buy it.... Can I get some page references and some white dwarf references? I have yet to see this white dwarf.....
    bgb p 17-21 about LOS and MEV.
    Also 2 more things - you measure from the weapon mount in 4th edition. So that totally screws up a carnifex who has to shoot from his arm height, and will never be able to shoot over a tank, where as a predator gets to aim from the turret which is way up in the air compared to a carnifexes arms.... This rule is stupid, and just serves to support who ever wants to use it.
    Where is it stated that a carnifex is a vehicle? Vehicles shoot from weapon mount (los that is not range). While it may be a stupid rule (and I agree that it is), none-the-less, it is writteen and published in the rules.
    Now, also, if this rule is true, and you can see the top of a dreadnaught say, over a rhino.... you cannot see more than 50% of it... just the top 25% or so. So, does that give you obscured target, or what?
    as per the rules, if you cannot see more than 50% of a side of a vehicle, the vehicle may get the obscured target rule.
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