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  1. #1
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Possessed + Power Fist

    Hey there, Chaos fans.

    Just looking through the 'dex here, and I stumbled across something interesting.

    It has been argued and proved time and again that if you combine Daemonic Strength with a Power Fist, it will become S9 - since the Power Fist is doubling the basic strength of the model, and the D. Strength comes on afterwards. I'm pretty sure this has been the general consensus.

    However, what about for Possessed Marines? Yes, it says that the extra strength comes from D. Strength, but it's put into their basic profile - not even in parenthesis. Wouldn't this imply that an A.C. with a Power Fist have S10 instead of 9?

    Just something to look at.

    edit: I apologise, too, if this has been discussed before... I was so caught up with the idea that I forgot to do a search. *sigh*


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    I am not so sure. The only time parentheses are used is for toughness, to denote basic toughness for instant kill. Any other modifier is just added in. For possessed specifically, it says that str is already included in the profile. That gives the model a base str 4 which the fist then doubles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephirth
    I am not so sure. The only time parentheses are used is for toughness, to denote basic toughness for instant kill. Any other modifier is just added in. For possessed specifically, it says that str is already included in the profile. That gives the model a base str 4 which the fist then doubles.
    But it doesn't give it a base strength - the strength used for the doubling of Power Fists is the strength in the profile, and it isn't 4, it's 5. That's the problem there, it's not an "added" strength, it's the strength of their profile, which is basic, no matter what else it says in the entry as far as I can tell.

    Other rulings?

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    I think I agree with Sephirth on this one - there are other precedents for taking a profile number addign to it, and then using it without parentheses, and without treating it as the model's base number. The first one that comes to mind it terminators. Just like possessed, it says the extra attack is included in the profile, but it is not noted as separate - if we then go and apply wargear on top of that, as the powerfist, they would get another attack above the profile, for the terminator armor.

    Does that make sense as an example? It's really late here and I can't really focus my eyes.

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    toughness isn't the only thing Parentheses are used on. Attacks get it quite often, wraithlord has x(y).

    The terminator armour is a very strong point, however since the exact ruling for terminators is so screwed up anyway (i.e. they dont have honours at all!) I'm not willing to trust that as an example.

    Going by the letter of the rules I'd say that they do get S10 since their base strength is whatevers on their profile. Its irrelevant what common sense tells you and in this case theres no obvious answer, therefore you go with the letter of the rules. You only apply common sense when GW's intention is disputed. (unlike summoning possessed)

    Yes daemonic strength comes on afterwards but in the profile it quite clearly shows the base strength. Just another of the many mistakes in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

    edit: I would also like to point out that dreadnought close combat weapons strength increase is put in parantheses.
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    Senior Member Lamenter's Avatar
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    there is a very old Q&A about this somewhere.

    Basically the basic rules of mathematics apply. No matter how you argue - multiplication before addition.

    so it will always be 4*2+1 = 9
    Shut up and play.

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    Senior Member DEADMARSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Hey there, Chaos fans.

    Just looking through the 'dex here, and I stumbled across something interesting.

    It has been argued and proved time and again that if you combine Daemonic Strength with a Power Fist, it will become S9 - since the Power Fist is doubling the basic strength of the model, and the D. Strength comes on afterwards. I'm pretty sure this has been the general consensus.

    However, what about for Possessed Marines? Yes, it says that the extra strength comes from D. Strength, but it's put into their basic profile - not even in parenthesis. Wouldn't this imply that an A.C. with a Power Fist have S10 instead of 9?

    Just something to look at.

    edit: I apologise, too, if this has been discussed before... I was so caught up with the idea that I forgot to do a search. *sigh*

    After re-reading PFs in the BGB and the entry for Possesed Space Marines, I would say it's S10.

    I think the only reason they mention "wargear/ abilities/ etc. are included in the profile" is so you don't take them again, i.e. terminators with terminator honors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEADMARSH
    I think the only reason they mention "wargear/ abilities/ etc. are included in the profile" is so you don't take them again, i.e. terminators with terminator honors.

    But if we are in essence saying "this character has this wargear, so don't take it again" why would we treat it as a different stiuation from when we bought them the wargear?

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    Senior Member DEADMARSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miril
    But if we are in essence saying "this character has this wargear, so don't take it again" why would we treat it as a different stiuation from when we bought them the wargear?
    Good point. I dunno.

    I guess because you don't have the option of not taking it?
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    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miril
    But if we are in essence saying "this character has this wargear, so don't take it again" why would we treat it as a different stiuation from when we bought them the wargear?
    Because it's already put in as part of their basic statline - you can't change their basic statline, can you? Generally, you can add onto it with Gifts, wargear, etc. but you can't change it. And the S5 is in their basic statline, from what we can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamenter
    Basically the basic rules of mathematics apply. No matter how you argue - multiplication before addition.
    I really don't want to go into this, but if I must... there is no addition that you speak of. There's one value - S5. There is no S4 at all in their basic profile which is used to determine the strength that is doubled by the Fist - it is S5, that's their basic strength. Nothing is added to that.

    As said, in something like this you have to read the basic profile like it is, not try to use common sense - almost anytime you try to use common sense or logic in a GW game, your head will explode.

    Thanks for the help, all. I think it does give it S10, and enough people agreed with me to make it an arguable point if anyone brings it up in an actual game, if I ever get the chance to use Possessed.

    If someone has another argument for or against, please do post, but don't bring up the "it's common sense" thing - a basic profile is a basic profile, no matter how you look at it.

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