Wargear/Upgrades: Allowed to Keep it a Secret? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot magnet_man's Avatar
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    Wargear/Upgrades: Allowed to Keep it a Secret?

    I had a 3 game tournament on Sunday. Because of the limited use of Eldar at the game store I attend, this turned out to be the first time I had ever played against Eldar (been playing for about 9 months).

    Now, I recognized the names of models as I had glanced through the Edlar Codex at points, but I had not studied the war gear/upgrades list. I explained this to my opponent as he was placing his Wave Serpent. I asked him politely what upgrades that vehicle had and what they do. He told me that I couldn't ask that and that I would find out as we played. I then asked him were the upgrades even modeled on the model and he said yes. I then informed him that this was unfair as I had never seen Eldar models and therefore did not know what to look for. He eventually relented and told me about the holo projector and something else that I can't remember.

    As far as I know there is no rule saying a person has to show you a list or not. I was not worried about cheating as his list was submitted to the tournament officials for checking before the game started.

    So my question is, was this guy in the right to try and deny me information about his list?

    Tim Wright

    "The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
    -John Gilmore

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  3. #2
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Technically, I think the answer is "yes." Unfortunately. But, that's an incredibly unsportsmanlike thing to do, and you should have probably spoken with the tourney organiser(s) to see if they had any rules about the situation. I've never been in a tourney situation, and I only play my friends (that, and I know more about their armies than they do.. but hey) so I've never come across this scenario, but I think I heard that it's allowed to keep things secret until they start doing things.. if that makes any sense.

  4. #3
    Illustrator Extraordinair Adrian MalSeraph's Avatar
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    As far as I can remember, in the BGB, it says that there is no obligation to tell the person what is in your list. For instance, your opponent, can CHOOSE to divulge which AC is the Daemonhost, but it'll become apparent soon.

    I simply tell people so that there are no surprises when I make a move. But its fun to see their reaction...

    ME: Okay, I activate my Standard of Devastation
    HIM: What does that do?
    ME: rule explaining
    HIM: Holy ****!

  5. #4
    Senior Member AtlantianWarrior's Avatar
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    I to was at the tournament. I played a Whitch Hunter list. I had never played them befor. I asked questions and he answered them. As a matter of fact most people I play if I have a question about their army they answer it. He might have been being a punk about not letting you know about it.
    Why use science and education when ignorance and superstition will work just as well.



  6. #5
    Firefly Skarsgard's Avatar
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    I always tell my opponent what any model they can see has. Saves headaches down the track.
    Mirage Arcana Podcast
    The "A Smart Player Will..." theory is a complete paradox. If we make an assumption that everything we do is outsmarted, then theoretically we can never win.

  7. #6
    LO Zealot magnet_man's Avatar
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    *grumble*

    Just flipped through the BGB and found my answer. Page 81.

    *sigh* still seems bad form to pull when facing a new list. I can understand not letting someone know the contents of a carrier, but special powers seem just ridiculous. The other problem with this rule is that it implies that WYSIWYG is in effect. The tournament organizers said that they were being lax on the rule since a lot of players (myself included) didn't have an accurate list.

    In the end I won the game, apparently howling banshees don't survive a crashed skimmer very well (7 out of 10 died).

    Thanks for the comments everyone, guess I just needed to vent (had a few other issues with this guy that I won't bring up).

    BTW AtlantianWarrior, we were at the same tournament. I know the guy you played, he's a good guy.
    Last edited by magnet_man; August 30th, 2006 at 04:15.
    Tim Wright

    "The internet perceives censorship as damage, and routes around it."
    -John Gilmore

  8. #7
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    While it is true that the bgb states you don't have to share your list, it's unsportsmanlike to attempt to hide things. Remember, everything must be WYSIWYG, but there are many ways to represent items... So it's only right to explain what a model has if asked - and their rules if the opponent is unfamiliar with them.

  9. #8
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    So far I've only played home games (and like Lost Nemesis, I know more about my friends' armies than they do!). However, I stopped by my local hobby shop this past weekend and got there during the last round of a 40k Tourney. I talked to the owner of the store/organizer of the tourney and plan on making my debute at the next tourney in a month or so.

    One of the things I learned about this tourney is that the "best painted" prize takes into account player votes on "best painted" along with sportmanship ratings. So far I have only played Necron, SM and Tau (and Harliquins once) so chances are I will face armies I don't know much about, if my opponent refuses to divulge info, then I have no qualms about docking their sportsmanship score

    I play Orks, so I'd prefer to divulge my info.

    These guys have this, but if I roll this they die...
    And this vehicle has this, but if I roll this then it breaks-down...
    Oh, and this guy can do this, but there's a chance he does that...

    Orks make gud conversation!

  10. #9
    Senior Member xrix1's Avatar
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    Basicaly anything that falls under WYSIWYG has to be divulged. As you can convert a model, and some upgrades have no standard representation, such as 1/2 the new Tau wargear. You would have to tell someone that say the two canisters on top of a crisis suit is a chem injector, and then you as a player can ask what a chem injector does. If it is something that is not WYSIWYG then you do not have to tell your opponent.

    Thus as a Chaos player you don't have to tell your opponent which AC is the deamonhost, but you do have to show deamonic chains (if you have them), and you do have to tell your opponent what they are if he asks.

  11. #10
    Member windbourne's Avatar
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    I tend to play more with my (fair sized) group of local players rather than at the local GW, and we tend to say that if its something you can see, you can ask about it. We don't tend to explain rules though, since we find it more fun (and more tactical) not to.

    For example, two of my friends play chaos, and my Daemonhunters Brother Captain is sometimes uppped to carry an anointed weapon. So I use the model with the fancy looking purity sealed sword. If my opponent askes I tell him the BC is in termi armour with a storm bolter and a fancy sword. My opponent knows 'fancy swords' are bad... he just may not know in what way yet.

    We have never seen a reason to explain anything like statlines, rules for wargear, or weapon stats until they are used. Though we always have the wargear book to hand of course :shifty:

    -wb

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