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Situation. there are 8 csm's within 1-3 inches of a level 2 terrain hill with steep edges, on the opposite side there is a dev squad standing on top of a separate piece of lever 2 terrain. According to the rules you would have LOS but you clearly don't have any in this situation due to the hills steep sides. Is there a ruling about this (non-house rules) I will call in later today and post the answer if I get a chance, figured the forums could benefit from this.
Regardless of rules lawyering, I have yet to see a game (tournament or otherwise) where a unit was allowed to shoot a unit it physically can't see. As a rule of thumb I always bring a laser pointer to games for just this reason. I've seen it argued at the local GW before, usually in cityfight games, whenever I break out the pointer the argument stops.
The rules are good and all, but they revolve around us using our commonsense.
www.HIGHBATTALION.com - it's a link, you click it.
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If the hill the CSMs are behind is classified as area terrain, the dev's can't see them regardless if they have models eye view (MEV) to the CSMs or not. If it's not classified as area terrain, they can shoot at and kill only the models they can draw an actual line of sight to. For example, if the CSMs 1" away from the hill couldn't be seen looking at the MEV of the dev's, it is not a valid target... but if the dev's could see the ones 3" back, they can shoot at them.
MEV with a laser pointer is usually the final word at our club. We use one that acts a bit like a laser level in that it draws a line instead of a dot. Especially handy for checking if the cormer of a hill/forest/building is in the way.
War Record Since Sept 2005
Old Codex 48-20-9 Dark Eldar
New Codex 1-0-0 Dark Eldar
According to GW if I have a dev squad ontop of a lvl 2 terrain piece and to the north of me there is a second level 2 terrain piece my dev squad can see units on the other side of that piece even if LOS is not present. This would be for GW tourneys and get you "bad sportsman" points for sure, but that is the official GW statement.
Ehhhh, no, you still need to draw a LoS to something in order to shoot it, if you cannot physically see the models you are shooting at then you cannot nominate them.
Snarl you are wrong, you always have to have LoS or else you can't do damage (models not in LoS are not viable targets) Also that doesn't speak to the issue raised by the poster.
In this situation, unfortunately do to classifications, the dev squad in area terrain size 2 may not see the models behind area terrain of size 2 or 3. The reason being is that the AT rules clearly state that any model behind the appropriately sized terrain (the CSM in this example) are not visible, regardless of the size of the piece of terrain.
This is why you must be very careful with AT designations, there doesnt need to be a whole lot of area terrain in games. If you want cover saves and don't want to deal with AT designations say the terrain just confers cover saves.
I also want to state that this situation stinks because there is clear MEV. Although I don't think rules lawyering is required to get where my conclusion is, I also want to say that I feel for people in this situation and you're right its messed up, but its the problem with imperfect terrain rules.
If we want to go more in depth I'm start citing for everyones benefit
Rules corruptions are simply that, corruptions, they neither deserve to be part of a logical argument, nor do they deserve to be considered as fact for deciding the governing rules of this game.
I actually prefer an old-fashioned piece of string, yarn, or twine to the laser pointer. I tried using the pointer a long time ago, and sometimes had issues getting it in the proper position to shoot from that would accurately demonstrate what some models can see. However, I can always hold one end of the string between my thumb and the model's head, and stretch the other end with my free hand toward my target. Always works and no batteries required.
Triumph Of Man of man beat me to it. I do the same thing with a tape measure.
Why use science and education when ignorance and superstition will work just as well.