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  1. #1
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    Multiple Save Q's

    1) For a unit that has multiple saves (normal armour and an invul, normal armour and a cover, etc...) you are only allowed to use one. But, when do you need to decide which to use? Can you wait until all rolling is said and done and find out what the number of wounds and AP values are before choosing which save to use?

    2) Mixed armour rule states that if a unit has several differnt save values, then you must use the majority, or if there is no majority you must use the worst save. This is easy in a unit with say 3 models with a 3+ armour save and 3 other with a 4+ armour save (you use the 4+). But what about a unit with 3 models with a 2+ armour save and 3 models with a 4+ invulnerable save? Which is considered the worse save? Is one always taken over the other, or does it depend on the situation?

    If hit with AP3 or higher weaponry, they 2+ is the better save.
    If hit with AP2 or 1 weaponry, the 4+ invulnerable is the better save.

    So in those situations do you have to use the other save, or is the 4+ invulnerable always considered the worst save because its higher?


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  3. #2
    Illustrator Extraordinair Adrian MalSeraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeyclops View Post
    1) For a unit that has multiple saves (normal armour and an invul, normal armour and a cover, etc...) you are only allowed to use one. But, when do you need to decide which to use? Can you wait until all rolling is said and done and find out what the number of wounds and AP values are before choosing which save to use?

    2) Mixed armour rule states that if a unit has several differnt save values, then you must use the majority, or if there is no majority you must use the worst save. This is easy in a unit with say 3 models with a 3+ armour save and 3 other with a 4+ armour save (you use the 4+). But what about a unit with 3 models with a 2+ armour save and 3 models with a 4+ invulnerable save? Which is considered the worse save? Is one always taken over the other, or does it depend on the situation?

    If hit with AP3 or higher weaponry, they 2+ is the better save.
    If hit with AP2 or 1 weaponry, the 4+ invulnerable is the better save.

    So in those situations do you have to use the other save, or is the 4+ invulnerable always considered the worst save because its higher?
    1) You can use any you wish, so long as you can. It's just to your advantage to use the best one.

    2)The worse save is the 4+. It's all based on dice to determine which is the better save. You're more likely to make a 3+ armour than a 4+ invulnerable, making it the better save. It doesn't matter what kind of save it is.

    In short, the 4+ save is always considered the worse (from your example) because your less likely to get it.

  4. #3
    Master of the Ravenwing Anacron's Avatar
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    1) As Adrian said, you only choose which save to use when you have to take it, i.e. after everything has wounded.

    2) This is one of the dodgy rule areas where GW didn't think through their Multiple Armour Save section properly. Assuming your normal armour is not ignored, then yes the 4+ Invulnerable would be worse. If you're hit by only AP2 weapons, then obviously the 4+ Invulnerable would be the better save. If you're hit by a mixture of AP2 and AP3... then I'm afraid the rules do not cover your situation properly.
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    Senior Member Valerian's Avatar
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    Not quite

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeyclops View Post
    1) For a unit that has multiple saves (normal armour and an invul, normal armour and a cover, etc...) you are only allowed to use one. But, when do you need to decide which to use? Can you wait until all rolling is said and done and find out what the number of wounds and AP values are before choosing which save to use?
    You can chose which save you want to use (whichever one is most advantageous to you) after Wounds are allocated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeyclops View Post
    2) Mixed armour rule states that if a unit has several differnt save values, then you must use the majority, or if there is no majority you must use the worst save.
    Actually it doesn't say this at all. Reread the section on majority saves. If it still isn't clear to you, please let me know and I'll provide examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeyclops View Post
    This is easy in a unit with say 3 models with a 3+ armour save and 3 other with a 4+ armour save (you use the 4+). But what about a unit with 3 models with a 2+ armour save and 3 models with a 4+ invulnerable save? Which is considered the worse save? Is one always taken over the other, or does it depend on the situation?

    If hit with AP3 or higher weaponry, they 2+ is the better save.
    If hit with AP2 or 1 weaponry, the 4+ invulnerable is the better save.

    So in those situations do you have to use the other save, or is the 4+ invulnerable always considered the worst save because its higher?
    You've got this all wrong, please reread the rules for Majority Saves. Majority Saves do not work the same way as Majority Toughness. You do not use the majority save for everyone in the unit when making saves versus allocated wounding hits. All the majority save is used for is to determine which models wounding hits are allocated to first. All models still get the save of their armour, when they roll to save vs. wounding hits.


    Valerian

  6. #5
    Member Ling_Lover's Avatar
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    also, AFAIK invulnerable saves are not counted in majority armour rules

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    Senior Member Valerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ling_Lover View Post
    also, AFAIK invulnerable saves are not counted in majority armour rules
    Well, when reading the Mixed Armor rules on page 76 it doesn't say anything about whether Invulnerable Saves count or not. However, under More Than One Save (p 25) the last sentence says that "Sometimes a unit will contain models with a mix of different Armour Saves adn Invulnerable Saves. This complex situation is explained on page 76."

    Therefore we must conclude that Invulnerable Saves are included in the Mixed Armor rules.

    Valerian

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    Member Ling_Lover's Avatar
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    ok, i can see how that can be concluded...

    however, i still think that invulnerable saves are not actually covered and that the reference on page 25 is a typo

    it seems to me like they meant to cover invulnerable saves too, but didnt put it in (for whatever reason)

  9. #8
    Firefly Skarsgard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ling_Lover View Post
    ok, i can see how that can be concluded...

    however, i still think that invulnerable saves are not actually covered and that the reference on page 25 is a typo

    it seems to me like they meant to cover invulnerable saves too, but didnt put it in (for whatever reason)
    I think the reference to Invulnerable saves on page 25 was meant to cover it.

    It covers units like eldar guardians with warlocks.
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  10. #9
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    Couple of things. Valarian hit most all of it but let me throw out a few more points.......

    First, page 24 bgb "Begin by removing models that wouldn't get a save"
    This is HUGE and most overlook it, and skip straight to MA (mixed armour).

    Next, as pointed out, MA applies to invulnerable and normal saves. Cited on bgb p 25, under more than one save, also p 12 makes no distinction between the save types, nor does the section on saving throws in the shooting section bgb p 24.

    that said, the question at hand is
    1) For a unit that has multiple saves (normal armour and an invul, normal armour and a cover, etc...) you are only allowed to use one. But, when do you need to decide which to use? Can you wait until all rolling is said and done and find out what the number of wounds and AP values are before choosing which save to use?
    You decide which armour will be taking the hit, then roll, as per page 25 under more than one save. This is further clarified by mixed armour rules, bgb p 76, where only the armour types that rolled can be given wounds. So no rolling, and then saying this 5 applies to the cover save vs lascannon, while these 3s apply to bolter fire.

    2) Mixed armour rule states that if a unit has several differnt save values, then you must use the majority, or if there is no majority you must use the worst save. This is easy in a unit with say 3 models with a 3+ armour save and 3 other with a 4+ armour save (you use the 4+). But what about a unit with 3 models with a 2+ armour save and 3 models with a 4+ invulnerable save? Which is considered the worse save? Is one always taken over the other, or does it depend on the situation?
    as Valarian pointed out, you have this a bit mixed up. Majority armour must apply wounding hits first. In your example, if you took 3 wounding hits, then the 4+ would take all 3 hits. If it took 4 hits, the 4+ would take 3 hits, and 1 wounding hit would be apllied to the 3+ save group.
    A 4++ is still worse than a 3+. Note, this is caught by the remove models without save reference I listed on p 24. So, you could apply the hit to a model with an invulnerable if you take enough hits (see mixed armour as you get to choose which weapon is saved by which save.)
    As to which save to take, you can take any one you wish, as allowed by the mixed armour rules and rules of more than one save. Note-you can't take saves in the minority until wounding hits have been applied to all the majority first.

    If hit with AP3 or higher weaponry, they 2+ is the better save.
    If hit with AP2 or 1 weaponry, the 4+ invulnerable is the better save.

    So in those situations do you have to use the other save, or is the 4+ invulnerable always considered the worst save because its higher?
    4++ is worse, but....but you always get an invulnerable save.

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  11. #10
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    Ok, thanks guys, I got this much clearler now. I was aware that models get their own save in MA, it just depends on who makes saves 1st (worded that wrong, sorry!). But the fact that you remove models without a save first makes it much easier (and makes the most sense).

    So if I understand this correctly. I have a unit of 5 modesl, 2 w/ a 3+ save and 3 with a 2+ save. I am wounded 3 times with AP3 weapons. Going by the remove models without a save first reference, I remove the 2 3+ save models 1st, even though they aren't the majority, because they don't get a save in this case. (?)

    Also, going by the explanation of multiple saves. Say I have a unit of 5 models, all with a 3+ save and in cover giving a 5+ cover save. They are wounded 4 times, 2 wounds from AP3 weapons and 2 wounds from AP4 weapons. Can I say I'm using my 3+ save vs the AP4s and my 5+ cover cs the AP3s?

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