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  1. #1
    Member Dremmen's Avatar
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    Librarian w/ Familiar Clarification

    Yes, there are other topics covering librarians and familiars. However, after reading all the previous posts I was not any more confident in how the familair is played. Here are a series of scenarios that hopefully will give me the confidence to reply to my opponent when he asks what I can and cannot do with the familiar;

    1) The Libby and Familiar get shot at whilst prancing about the board - the Familiar is T3, the Libby T4. I believe the rule goes that when there is mixed T, use the lowest so I would use T3 for determining wounds? Or does the Familiar's wargear status change that? Does it change the IC status of the Libby? ( here I think the answer is no)

    2) The Libby and Familiar charge into combat. a) The Libby is in base contact with the enemy units, but leaves the familiar to the back, unengaged (can he do that?). Can my opponent choose to assign his attacks to the familiar because it is within 2" of the locked in combat libby? Does the familiar count as engaged then or again, is it wargear and therefore insubstantial even though it is an unit? b) The Libby and librarian both charge into the battle, and both are in btb contact to the enemy. The enemy kills the Familiar easily due to its low T and low I ? and there goes your expensive wargear? This doesn't seem right.

    I realize some of the answers will be opinion due to the lack of clarification in the Codex or any FAQs I've read. But any supporting references would lend credit to answers I may have to give opponents, and would be appreciated.

    Stormcrows Chapter of the Space Marines
    Praemonitus praemunitus
    Enemy: W/L/D
    IG: 2/0/0
    Tyranids: 1/1/1
    Chaos: 4/0/1
    DH: 3/1/1
    SW: 0/1/0
    SM: 1/0/0
    Orcs: 1/0/0
    Necron: 2/2/0
    Total: 14/5/3

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  3. #2
    Member Zagref's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    a) The Libby is in base contact with the enemy units, but leaves the familiar to the back, unengaged (can he do that?).
    Only if it dosen't have movement to make it into base-to-base. The familiar MUST try to contact another unengaged model, failing that it must try to double up on an engaged one. Only if it is unable to do either can it just move up to the 2" combat zone.

    I've never seen any provisions anywhere for a model that has stats but can become ephemeral since it's wargear. If it's killable, it's out there and can be attacked.

  4. #3
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    If it it was meant to be unkillable, then it wouldn't have a statline. At least, that's how I look at it.

    I'd treat it exactly like how Chaos players treat their followers (I.E. - thralls, hounds.) They form a unit with the Librarian and follow all rules for a unit, except where noted. This means that he can be shot at when outside of a unit, and the familiar will drop his toughness when not joined to another unit, due to the majority toughness rule.

    That's just my take on it.


  5. #4
    Senior Member Lamenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    1) The Libby and Familiar get shot at whilst prancing about the board - the Familiar is T3, the Libby T4.
    The Libby is still an IC for the purposes of targetting him. once the shooting/wounding starts treat it like a unit with mixed T (with the majority being the Libby's T4, as he has more wounds than the Familiar with its T3, at least in the beginning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    2) The Libby and Familiar charge into combat. a) The Libby is in base contact with the enemy units, but leaves the familiar to the back, unengaged (can he do that?).
    No. Every model has to try and engange a previously unengaged model. Unless the movement rules don't allow it to make contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    Can my opponent choose to assign his attacks to the familiar because it is within 2" of the locked in combat libby? Does the familiar count as engaged then or again, is it wargear and therefore insubstantial even though it is an unit?
    That is a tough one. I am not sure. I would say no, because the Librarian is an IC and as such always coutns as a separate unit in HTH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    b) The Libby and librarian both charge into the battle, and both are in btb contact to the enemy. The enemy kills the Familiar easily due to its low T and low I ? and there goes your expensive wargear? This doesn't seem right.
    Yes the familiar is easily killed. But that is a risk you have to live with or to try to avoid by killing all the models it is engaged with first (with the Librarians superior stats).
    Shut up and play.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Djones9916's Avatar
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    Did a search, but couldn't find anything else so I'll ask here.

    Does a Librarian travelling with a familiar lose his IC status?
    Nights Justice Space Marines
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  7. #6
    Member Dremmen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamenter View Post
    Yes the familiar is easily killed. But that is a risk you have to live with or to try to avoid by killing all the models it is engaged with first (with the Librarians superior stats).

    Okay, now lets explore this further (and thank you for the thorough response Lamenter). Say the Libby and his familiar charge at the side of a squad of Necrons. The Librarian is in btb with 2 necrons, and the familiar is in btb with one necron which is also in btb with the librarian. The librarian attacks at I6, with 6 attacks on the charge, rerolling hits and wounds and scoring say 4 kills. The two necrons in btb die, then the two other wounds are assigned to any models engaged in the combat (within 2" - right?) but no locked. That wipes out enough necrons that none can attack back (which I think is what you were getting to).

    NOW, the IC won the melee - do I get to sweep them? I believe not. Do I have to pile in? If I have to pile in then that defeats the purpose because come next turn my familiar will again be in btb with necrons and killable. If I do neither and stand my ground, then the remainer of the necron squad can charge me the next turn, right?

    Of course, for an opponent to choose to target the familiar instead of the IC would mean they surrender the rest of their squad, as there ain't much that will last 2 turns against 5 attacks with a power weapon, rerolling hits and wounds at WS 5.
    Stormcrows Chapter of the Space Marines
    Praemonitus praemunitus
    Enemy: W/L/D
    IG: 2/0/0
    Tyranids: 1/1/1
    Chaos: 4/0/1
    DH: 3/1/1
    SW: 0/1/0
    SM: 1/0/0
    Orcs: 1/0/0
    Necron: 2/2/0
    Total: 14/5/3

  8. #7
    Senior Member Lamenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    NOW, the IC won the melee - do I get to sweep them?
    Yes.

    Your Unit (an IC, but still a unit) won a round of combat against your opponent's unit (Necron warriors). So they have to do a Morale test with all applicable modificers and based on the outcome of said test you might be able to sweep them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmen View Post
    Do I have to pile in? If I have to pile in then that defeats the purpose because come next turn my familiar will again be in btb with necrons and killable.
    If the Necron squad passes their test, then you have to pile in. Just like you would normally do.

    So you see - you should always support ICs with squads and not have them run around by themselves. Give your opponennt enough targets in HTH and they won't bother with or won't be able to hit the familiar.



    EDIT: sorry I forgot
    Quote Originally Posted by Djones9916
    Does a Librarian travelling with a familiar lose his IC status?
    No. He is still an IC. He just has a piece of wargear with him.

    So he can still join other squads and all that stuff. (Not like an IC with retinue or Techmarine with servitor retinue, who loose their IC status until the retinue is killed)
    Last edited by Lamenter; November 30th, 2006 at 17:18.
    Shut up and play.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Forsaken2544's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamenter View Post


    No. He is still an IC. He just has a piece of wargear with him.

    So he can still join other squads and all that stuff. (Not like an IC with retinue or Techmarine with servitor retinue, who loose their IC status until the retinue is killed)
    What makes a librarian with familiar different from a Chaos lord with hound? Or a spawn? Or how about a Shas'O with a drone? Or an inquisitor with familiar? They are wargear too, aren't they?
    * "I'm Significant!" -screamed the dust speck
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Lamenter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken2544 View Post
    What makes a librarian with familiar different from a Chaos lord with hound? Or a spawn? Or how about a Shas'O with a drone? Or an inquisitor with familiar? They are wargear too, aren't they?
    What makes them different? The fact that GW is inconsistent in their codexes.

    Codex:Chaos is very specific when it comes to followers. As are the codexes for the Inquisiton. And unfortunately in CodexM the familiar is wargear, so it is handled differently. Even though it should be the same thing.

    I am not too familiar with the rules for the Tau, so I cannot comment on them.
    Shut up and play.

  11. #10
    Member Dremmen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamenter View Post
    Your Unit (an IC, but still a unit) won a round of combat against your opponent's unit (Necron warriors). So they have to do a Morale test with all applicable modificers and based on the outcome of said test you might be able to sweep them.
    Hmm..I thought there was some caveat regarding making a sweep when the would-be sweeping unit is outnumbered by the sweep-e. The Necrons, despite the 4 or 5 man loss they take, will probably still outnumber my lone IC, familiar or no, by 3 to 1. I'll have to flip through the book (again), but I thought there was something about that in there, which is what prompted the original question on ICs and Sweeping, since unless they are attached, an IC will always be outnumbered in a fight against another squad.
    Stormcrows Chapter of the Space Marines
    Praemonitus praemunitus
    Enemy: W/L/D
    IG: 2/0/0
    Tyranids: 1/1/1
    Chaos: 4/0/1
    DH: 3/1/1
    SW: 0/1/0
    SM: 1/0/0
    Orcs: 1/0/0
    Necron: 2/2/0
    Total: 14/5/3

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