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  1. #1
    Member TreeSapX's Avatar
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    LOS and Vehicle Squadrons

    Alright, I've looked around this sight and havn't been able to find the answer to my specific question. This either means I'm thinking too hard about an obvious answer (most likely) or just blinded by stupidity (humility is a good thing, at least that's what my therapist tells me). Either way I think it is a simple question that I've just clouded too much in my head, so please help me out if you can.

    Situation: Two Eldar walkers, both in the same squad, turn a corner so that they are lined up single-file facing my tank-hunting autocannons.

    Question: The rules of LOS and vehicles are still going strong, right? The one in the rear doesn't get shots at the tank-hunters (walker in front of him blocking LOS) and the tank-hunter's volley next turn only kills the one in front? It's the answer to the latter that has been bothering me more (probably 'cause I'm the one blowing 'em up, quite biased I'm sure).

    The only reason I ask this is that the BGB doesn't state anything about LOS when distributing hits amongst the squad, a problem that I am sure comes up quite a bit when discussing the implications of numerous vehicles crowded around each other. That and the answer to this question changes the game from a tie to my win. The second walker was his last model on the board which made a successful dash to an objective. It's more the question than the game though, the game happened to be one of the most fun ones I've ever played.

    Please help me put this to rest.

    "L'adace, l'adace, toujours ladace"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

    Don't give the enemy a moment to consider how badly they are being beaten.
    Never build defenses; let the enemy die in theirs.

    "Audacity, audacity, always audacity"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

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  3. #2
    Mathhammer wielder! Prittstift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreeSapX View Post
    Situation: Two Eldar walkers, both in the same squad, turn a corner so that they are lined up single-file facing my tank-hunting autocannons.

    Question: The rules of LOS and vehicles are still going strong, right? The one in the rear doesn't get shots at the tank-hunters (walker in front of him blocking LOS) and the tank-hunter's volley next turn only kills the one in front? It's the answer to the latter that has been bothering me more (probably 'cause I'm the one blowing 'em up, quite biased I'm sure).
    Now, here is a question! I have looked it up and indeed the BGB is not entirly clear on the subject. I would have to say that your right. The rear one does not get hit... It just doesn't seem logical to me that a burst of a autocannon would rip through the War Walker. I mean the thing has to collapse or explode first, which takes time, so I think he soaks those shots. Note that I'm not entirely sure since the rules do not cleary state the situation, but it seems most logical. (certainly, seeing as a round is a small amount of seconds)

    Hope it helps

  4. #3
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Prittstift View Post
    Now, here is a question! I have looked it up and indeed the BGB is not entirly clear on the subject. I would have to say that your right. The rear one does not get hit... It just doesn't seem logical to me that a burst of a autocannon would rip through the War Walker. I mean the thing has to collapse or explode first, which takes time, so I think he soaks those shots. Note that I'm not entirely sure since the rules do not cleary state the situation, but it seems most logical. (certainly, seeing as a round is a small amount of seconds)

    Hope it helps
    I think this all hinges on weapons range, the rules for weapons range on page 22 says any target out of the weapons range is automatically missed, and LOS rules are only used to determine if a unit can be seen.
    Squadrons are units of vehicles, so if the following criteria are fulfilled all the vehicles in the unit (squadrons) would be allocated hits regardless of positioning (i/e the formation you described)

    (a) All the members of the squadron are in range of the weapon firing, even if they are lined up as you described.
    (b) The shooting unit can draw a direct LOS to the target unit (note unit not individual vehicles)

    If the two criteria are fulfilled then yes all the vehicles in the squadron must be allocated hits. If however any of the squadron are outside the weapons max range then they cannot be allocated hits.

    You have to remember that 40K is not real world and a lot of its rules seem odd when applied to real world situations, you just have to play as intended by the rules. think about it if what you are saying applies then no model could ever be shot if another model of equivalent size is in front of it, even infantry and that does not happen, no one says "you rolled 5 hits on my 5 man squad but I am not taking 2 of because they were stood behind the other unit members so could not be seen and the ones in front would take all the bullets"

    If the two war walkers were separate units then yeah indeed the walker with furthest away that could have no LOS drawn to it would not be shot unless a TP test was past, but even then the same point could be raised (how could it be shot if you cant see it) but it can be shot
    1984

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    Member TreeSapX's Avatar
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    It doesn't always work that way though, Riki. A squad can be half hidden behind cover and, if so, then only the revealed half can die from fire. I believe if we go strictly from the rules, they state that a squad CAN be half hidden AND that a vehicle blocks LOS. The only thing that clashes with this is that they don't state LOS rules in the Vehicle Squadron section. This either means that a vehicle obviously blocks LOS to other members of its own squad, or (/and?) that someone can abuse(?) this grey area to shoot at the entire squadron.
    "L'adace, l'adace, toujours ladace"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

    Don't give the enemy a moment to consider how badly they are being beaten.
    Never build defenses; let the enemy die in theirs.

    "Audacity, audacity, always audacity"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

  6. #5
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    476 (x8)

    Even if one walker is standing behind the other it doesn't matter - they are still part of the same squadron and that is the target for the enemy unit.

    All the enemy needs to do is see the unit in this case, and then you go on to apply the rules under "shooting phase" on pg 73.

    I find it shadier trying to claim blocked LoS from a model in the same squadron than the other way around.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

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    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by TreeSapX View Post
    It doesn't always work that way though, Riki. A squad can be half hidden behind cover and, if so, then only the revealed half can die from fire. I believe if we go strictly from the rules, they state that a squad CAN be half hidden AND that a vehicle blocks LOS. The only thing that clashes with this is that they don't state LOS rules in the Vehicle Squadron section. This either means that a vehicle obviously blocks LOS to other members of its own squad, or (/and?) that someone can abuse(?) this grey area to shoot at the entire squadron.
    Yeah but we are not taking about cover, we are talking about LOS and LOS is drawn to a unit, the rules state that a vehicle can block LOS to a unit (a squadron is just a name for a unit of vehicles), it mentions nothing about a vehicle blocking a LOS to another vehicle in the SAME unit, it only mentions something blocking LOS to another unit.
    As long as you can draw LOS to the unit and its in range the members of the unit have to have hits dispersed throughout the unit.
    The only thing that would affect this is cover and even then the vehicle claiming cover (which is a bit hard for skimmers) would only get obscured benefits.
    1984

  8. #7
    Senior Member Lord Malachi's Avatar
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    War Walkers have an armor value, thus they are vehicles and can block LOS. The walkers can't draw LOS through each other to shoot the enemy. If the tank hunters can only draw LOS to one vehicle in the squadron then they can only hit that one vehicle.

    LOS is never unit to unit, it is always model to model. That is why when part of a unit is blocked from LOS the wounds cannot be taken from those models, same thing applies to vehicle squadrons.
    Just out of curiousity, whats next? Maybe you can make an issue about the fact that GW didn't define the action of 'rolling' a D6 to actually mean dropping it in such a manner as to produce a random result; thus making it perfectly acceptable to just put them down with the face up of your choice?

  9. #8
    Member TreeSapX's Avatar
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    I like where this argument is going so far.

    Here is what I am reading in the rule book: The LOS rules specifically state ALL vehicles block line of sight, friend or foe. I guess you can read the emphasis as stating that friend and foe models block LOS, but it DOES say ALL vehicles block LOS. This would apply to the walker shooting from behind and being seen from ahead.

    The next paragraph gives us the song and dance about if a model can be seen they can't get hurt and if they can't see they can't do any hurting.

    But we are back to the 'distributing hits' bit of the "Vehicle Squadron" rules, which states that all models get allocated hits. Here are my thoughts on this. If you look through the infantry section, it doesn't talk about units partially not visible when it discusses allocating wounds either. I believe, to make things simple, GW refers to each step separately. Therefor it would not find a need to mention squadrons and LOS because it already talked about LOS, vehicles, and units partially hidden.
    "L'adace, l'adace, toujours ladace"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

    Don't give the enemy a moment to consider how badly they are being beaten.
    Never build defenses; let the enemy die in theirs.

    "Audacity, audacity, always audacity"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

  10. #9
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Malachi View Post
    War Walkers have an armor value, thus they are vehicles and can block LOS. The walkers can't draw LOS through each other to shoot the enemy. If the tank hunters can only draw LOS to one vehicle in the squadron then they can only hit that one vehicle.
    LOS is never unit to unit, it is always model to model. That is why when part of a unit is blocked from LOS the wounds cannot be taken from those models, same thing applies to vehicle squadrons.
    Sorry a unit is a unit' yeah there may be certain models within the targeting unit who cannot draw a LOS but the LOS has to be drawn from unit to unit (you always target units unless you have rules which specify you can target individual models i/e Vindicare), and your using the rules on page 20 to apply to squadrons and they don't, they have modified rules.

    Now the vehicles form a unit, but they have there own unit rules on page 73 and it quite clearly states any hits are distributed amongst the UNIT, in the rules for LOS on page 20 it is detailing infantry units and how single model vehicle units affect LOS, check page 8 it says the following rules refer to infantry, thats why on page 13 it refers to page 58 because some vehicles have modified rules.

    The rules for LOS on page 20 are referring to infantry and single vehicle units blocking LOS for other units (all the pictures illustrate this), but squadrons have their own rules it never mentions anything about vehicles blocking LOS in their own unit, it is quite patently obvious that the rules for vehicles are referring to single vehicle blocking LOS to other single vehicles (or any other unit) and not squadrons.

    To me the people arguing this are trying to negate the squadron rules, because one of the biggest vulnerabilities of squadrons is they have to have the hits allocated throughout the squadron (at +1 to the result at that and vulnerable to blast doubles the hit count) so having a rules exploit where you can just line up single file is just rules lawyering and I for one would not play someone who insisted on using it, and yeah I play Imperial guard with sentinel squadrons and if my unit got into this somewhat unlikely formation and got shot at I would play it as it says in the book, even though its to my disadvantage because to me its pretty clear cut and I don't stretch rules to gain dubious advantages
    1984

  11. #10
    Member TreeSapX's Avatar
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    Riki, you are saying that because it lists 3/4 of a page of rules about squadrons that they ignore the other 50 pages of rules? So, I have a squadron of three walkers behind a gigantic wall, but since half of one is showing, they all get hit?

    Another thing, how can squadrons have their own rules for LOS when the whole point of this argument is that their section has nothing to say about LOS?

    By the way, it also specifically states on page 8 that whenever it mentions a 'unit' it is talking about any separate entity of the field, be that a group of infantry, a single vehicle, or a squadron. "In order to make it easier to learn the core rules of the sections covering Movement, Shooting, Assault and Morale are written with respect to Infantry units, because these are by far the most common unit type in the game. The other unit types are explained in later sections..." (Jetbikes, MC's, etc.)

    The unit types in other sections get descriptions with something like "Cavalry shoot using the previous Infantry rules," but the vehicle squadron section doesn't state that they follow the previous vehicle rules for moving, shooting, etc.

    The term for the day is not "Squadrons," it is "Vehicles in a Squadron." Every model in the squadron is a vehicle. On page 20 it clearly states that "All vehicles... block line of sight." If we were then to add on Rikimaru's argument that all hits are dispersed throughout the squadron, then it would never matter if the models were in single file, OR if half of them were behind a building. All hits would be dispersed throughout all of the models in the unit.

    GW isn't great when it comes to specifying their rules, so we have to work with what we have. I resent the fact that you chastise people for interpreting rules in some way that you disagree with, Rikimaru. All of us are rules lawyering, including you. It is something we have to do in order to play this game, and why I have to roll 4+ multiple times a game in order to settle disagreements found within the rules. Just because we disagree with you, it does not mean we are plotting and wringing our hands over how we are going to screw you all over grey areas in the rules. We are just arguing what we see in the rulebook, so please tone it down.
    "L'adace, l'adace, toujours ladace"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

    Don't give the enemy a moment to consider how badly they are being beaten.
    Never build defenses; let the enemy die in theirs.

    "Audacity, audacity, always audacity"
    - Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.

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