IC in unit gets sweeping advanced??? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    IC in unit gets sweeping advanced???

    2 questions if I may...

    A new situation came up last night that my friends and I couldn't resolve. In the game we ended up rolling a dice to decide, but I would like input on the actual solution:

    1) A unit of Necron something-or-others with a Necron Lord were assaulted. They lost the close combat (no wounds to the Lord and he wasn't in b2b) and failed their morale roll, and then got sweeping advanced. Is the Necron Lord also destroyed? On one hand, it says in the characters section that a character is treated as a seperate unit in close combat but on the other hand he is still attached to his unit - does he have to run if the rest of his unit runs? This has never come up before because most characters are fearless or have some other method of never failing morale.


    Another question if I may:

    2) While perusing the character rules, I saw that a character (specifically a character) gives his leadership to the unit he is a part of. This is as I would expect but the fact that it mentions this specifically for characters implies that non-characters do not convey their leadership to the unit they are in. We have always played it such that a unit uses the highest leadership of all models in it but now I can't find this statement anywhere in the rules. For example, a unit of firewarriors with LD7 has a Team Leader (not a character) with LD8 - this unit uses the LD8 as long as the team leader lives... Is this correct? Where is the rule for this?

    -Thread Killer Bryan
    Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
    T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept

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  3. #2
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    1. If he's attached to the unit, he will run down with the rest of the unit. ICs are only separate units in combat for the purposes of targeting them - they are still a part of the unit they are joined and so will be run down.

    2. You can find that right at the start of the rulebook on the page that explains all of the stats. It's one of those pages you don't really read because most people know what it all means.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    1. If he's attached to the unit, he will run down with the rest of the unit. ICs are only separate units in combat for the purposes of targeting them - they are still a part of the unit they are joined and so will be run down.
    Thanks, thats the answer I had been leaning towards and also what the dice said to do since we couldn't find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    2. You can find that right at the start of the rulebook on the page that explains all of the stats. It's one of those pages you don't really read because most people know what it all means.
    Thanks again. This is something that had been bothering me. We all kept saying "I know I read that somewhere!" but none of us could ever find it.
    -Thread Killer Bryan
    Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
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  5. #4
    Senior Member MurekZar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenGamer View Post
    2 questions if I may...
    Another question if I may:

    2) While perusing the character rules, I saw that a character (specifically a character) gives his leadership to the unit he is a part of. This is as I would expect but the fact that it mentions this specifically for characters implies that non-characters do not convey their leadership to the unit they are in. We have always played it such that a unit uses the highest leadership of all models in it but now I can't find this statement anywhere in the rules. For example, a unit of firewarriors with LD7 has a Team Leader (not a character) with LD8 - this unit uses the LD8 as long as the team leader lives... Is this correct? Where is the rule for this?
    Wow. You're right. I can't find any rule that says we use the Ld of an "Upgrade Character" (= team leader) for Leadership tests. Of course, one could say that it is implied by the very words used (leader, leadership...), and I think that is the common understanding... But, RAW-wise... you're right !

    The closest rule I see on this is the page 51 item on characters as leaders, combined with the page 50 definition of "upgrade characters". But of course such "upgrade characters" are precisely excluded from being "characters" for the rules that follow !

    So from now, RAW-wise, SM Tac Squad led by a Veteran Sergeant must test with Ld 8 ! Can't wait to pull that joke on my SM, CSM, SW,... friends. Nice trick, since I play Eldars, and we don't have this problem...:shifty:

    Seriously, is anybody playing that way ?

    Edit ! I posted before seeing Rork's answer.

    Well, Rork, I guess you're referring to page 12, specifically the last sentence of the item on Leadership. I am sure that some people here are going to say that this is just a fluff sentence, not a rule... So, RAW-wise... there we go agaaaaaaaain !!!
    Last edited by MurekZar; May 30th, 2007 at 15:17.

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    Whoa!

    Ok... Let me get this straight.

    My unit of IG, 9 guardsmen and 1 sarge, has a ldr of 7. If I upgrade my Sarge to a Vet he will have a ldr 8. When the unit takes casualties, they use the units ldr 7 or the Sarges ldr 8? We have always played that they use the Sarges ldr 8.

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    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlorlich View Post
    Whoa!

    Ok... Let me get this straight.

    My unit of IG, 9 guardsmen and 1 sarge, has a ldr of 7. If I upgrade my Sarge to a Vet he will have a ldr 8. When the unit takes casualties, they use the units ldr 7 or the Sarges ldr 8? We have always played that they use the Sarges ldr 8.
    Which is what makes sense and what we have always done also, but I can't find a rule anywhere that actually allows this. I'm sure it was intended that way as otherwise there would be no reason to pay points just to increase a single model's leadership, and many units in most armies have this option. But RAW-wise? I don't know.

    I really really really hope someone finds it somewhere in the rulebook or the FAQ.
    -Thread Killer Bryan
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    T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept

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    IF... this is the case and the Sarge or Upgraded Characters ldr does not increase the units overall Ldr... then that makes certain pieces of wargear alot more useful. Vox Caster, Book of St. Lucius, Shadowsun (yes she is a IC I know).

    I have been reading the Rule Book since I read this trying to find where it says you can use the upgraded characters ldr as the units ldr score and so far nadda. And the OP listed it right... in the Characters section it is very specific about the difference.

    Anyone else?

  9. #8
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    You'll use the highest leadership in the squad. Why wouldn't you? A sergeant is a leader, after all.

    RAW doesn't say you can't use a squad leader's ld value or says you must always use the units base ld (It would make those ld upgrades utterly pointless). It has to specified in the case of ICs since you could claim otherwise that as a technically separate unit, they couldn't pass it on.


    Having an army and not owning a rulebook is like owning a car with no steering wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by amishcellphone
    <3 rork. He does all the arguing so I don't have to.

  10. #9
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    RAW doesn't say you can either. It specifically states that the Upgraded Troopers do not follow the Character Rules. The Character Rules specifically state that they can bestow their Leadership value to the unit they attach to. Makes it sound like this is a special rule to them.

    Seems like this would be a crucial little rule that should be mentioned. There are other reasons to upgrade your Trooper, gear and abilities along with the increased Leadership.

    I agree that it makes sense that you would use the Upgraded Troopers Leadership value for the unit but other things in the rules go against sense entirely. In our gaming group we do allow the unit to use the highest Leadership in the unit. I am just playing devils advocate here because one of our Tau players nearly passed out when I mentioned this to him.

  11. #10
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    I'm going to make this into another thread since the original question posed in the title has been answered. I think it would be better to have a proper title show on the boards so people interested in the current discussion will know to open the thread.

    The new thread is here http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...tml#post938445 (Does an upgraded model's Leadership apply to entire unit?)

    Moderators: feel free to close this one and we'll continue this discussion in the proper thread.
    -Thread Killer Bryan
    Tyranid Hive Fleet Typhoeus
    T'au Empire, Bork'an Sept

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