CloseCombat out-numbering + no retreat rule - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
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    CloseCombat out-numbering + no retreat rule

    Under the rulebook Moral Check section, No Retreat, it specified that a unit must suffer addtional wound if they are out-numbered when they lost the fight, including fearless units and units that automatically passes moral check for any reasons. Does this include Tyranid's Synapse rule? What about Imperial Guard's Commissar summary execution, when a unit lead by the commissar summary executes but still out-numbered?

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    LO Zealot magnet_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekochen View Post
    Under the rulebook Moral Check section, No Retreat, it specified that a unit must suffer addtional wound if they are out-numbered when they lost the fight, including fearless units and units that automatically passes moral check for any reasons. Does this include Tyranid's Synapse rule? What about Imperial Guard's Commissar summary execution, when a unit lead by the commissar summary executes but still out-numbered?
    I know it applies to synapse, but I've never read the IG codex so I can't tell you on that one.
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    Senior Member MurekZar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekochen View Post
    Under the rulebook Moral Check section, No Retreat, it specified that a unit must suffer addtional wound if they are out-numbered when they lost the fight, including fearless units and units that automatically passes moral check for any reasons. Does this include Tyranid's Synapse rule? What about Imperial Guard's Commissar summary execution, when a unit lead by the commissar summary executes but still out-numbered?
    Tyranids :

    Yes, the Synapse rule (p28 of the Tyranid Codex) is defined in a way that clearly matches the condition of the No Retreat BGB rule.


    IG :

    I would say yes.

    I'm not an IG player, but when I read the Summary Execution rule, I think a unit with a Commissar and a Sergeant / Officer matches the No Retreat condition (which is very specific, but is "triggered" by a wide range of possibilities "They may be Fearless [etc], or be affected by some other rule" ). Indeed, the effect of the Commissar + Sergeant / Officer is that the IG unit automatically passes the Morale Test : either the Sgt / Of passes it directly, or it fails and then the Summary Execution automatically takes place and passes the test.

    Now I notice that once the Sergeant / Officer has been removed, the unit is then led by the Commissar himself. So the Summary Execution rule cannot apply a second time afterwards (well, except if the unit is joined by an IC). But that's why I say that the No Retreat rule applies to IG units with both a Commissar and a Sergeant / Officer. If there is only a Commissar then the Summary Execution is not possible anymore.
    Last edited by MurekZar; June 4th, 2007 at 09:45.

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    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    It seems kind of tight to do it to commissars and I don't think that was intended but the rules do look like they apply to it.

    But yes Synapse suffers from no retreat. A lot of players don't realise this (and a lot choose not to as it hurts their hormagaunts a LOT).
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    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurekZar View Post
    Now I notice that once the Sergeant / Officer has been removed, the unit is then led by the Commissar himself. So the Summary Execution rule cannot apply a second time afterwards (well, except if the unit is joined by an IC). But that's why I say that the No Retreat rule applies to IG units with both a Commissar and a Sergeant / Officer. If there is only a Commissar then the Summary Execution is not possible anymore.
    Summary Execution still happens even after Commissar takes over the unit. Read here FAQ

    Thanks all for the clearification. I did not know Tyranids suffer No Retreat until yesterday :ninja: .. Much like Lordlink said, it hurts my Hormaguants alot, and I hate to see my doggies cry
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    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    but why??? your homagaunts should never be outnumbered! so you should only ever be forced to take 1 save, which is well megre in terms of points cost of homagaunts

    but that and this is a bit off topic.

    i always find this a very odd ruling, fearless units get beaten up for no reason, it should apply to squads that pass their leadership test, as they are hanging in there as well, being stalwart

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    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    I agree Splata, and bring back voluntary fall back too.

    As for hormagaunts that's fine if you hit them with lots left. However how often does a swarm army hit an enemy without any casualties? If you have 3 or 4 hormagaunts left you can charge them into a devastator squad or something and tie them down. Due to No Retreat though they're all going to die horribly and those devs will be shooting you up with 4 missiles next turn.

    Since gaunts are all about tying guys down it's nice to tie them down 'till the last man standing.
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    The no-retreat is designed to give units that have an overwhelming advantage in numbers be able to use that advantage. You may be stalwart, but there will still be 4 enemies trying to kill you and not everyone in your squad can defend himself (or herself) from 4 enemies. Hence the extra wounds.
    Also, large squads can't always get all of their attacks in, because there are lots of models. That is where this comes in. If the melee is really, as GW insists, a swirling melee and there is no clear definition between one force and the other, those left out units should get attacks. This balances that.
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    Senior Member MurekZar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekochen View Post
    Summary Execution still happens even after Commissar takes over the unit. Read here FAQ
    Thanks ! I forgot to check the FAQ before answering... Oooops !

    Thanks all for the clearification. I did not know Tyranids suffer No Retreat until yesterday :ninja: .. Much like Lordlink said, it hurts my Hormaguants alot, and I hate to see my doggies cry
    Yes, it hurts... I usually find that the last handful of survivors dwindles very fast towards the end of CCs.

    Now, there's something we can do about it... Remember that Hormagaunts fulfill the No Retreat condition when they're in Synapse range. It may make sense to move your synapse models away from a CC where you have some Hormy survivors left. Of course, you have to suffer all the consequences (high risk of failing morale test, being cut down in sweeping advance...). But I just want to point out that you may have that option (depending on position of synapses). What is interesting is that falling back units move towards the closest synapse, and automatically regroup when they come back in synapse range. So having low Ld units falling """ back """ is not so bad for Tyranids...

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