Multiwound models insta death and removing "whole" models - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member xrix1's Avatar
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    Multiwound models insta death and removing "whole" models

    While deploying for a game of 40K last night I noticed something which I thought was strange last night. A unit of 2 Crisis suits, one the 4 wound commander and the other a bodyguard with 1 wound already done to it were hit by a las cannon (neither had a shield pod). The Tau player then pulled his commander as the casualty because he had to pull a "whole model" as a casualty.

    After a long disscussion it seemed that most people there were of the oppinion that a whole model is a model that hasn't taken any wounds, and thus an intakilling shot ignores models with wounds already done to them if there is an unwounded model to remove.

    I was under the impression that this rule was only to prevent you from spreading wounds around a squad, and didn't really have anything to do with instant death.

    Anyways rules quotes or something would be helpful as the people (I'll admit even myself) were farily set in there oppinions.


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  3. #2
    Son of LO tarzen's Avatar
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    121 (x8)

    If you check the section on multi wound models and multiwound units you'll find that no model is assigned wounds. The unit is. In short, there are simply floating wounds, waiting for the addition of more wounds such that the amount of wounds applied to the unit is equal to the number of wounds on a model-thus killing one.

    Whether or not the commander had a wound already, the instakill shot can be applied to anyone in the squad (mind you, following rules for casaulty removal).
    My armies:
    16,000+ of Eldar (only need flyers)
    7,000+ of Nids (want heirophant)
    6,000+ of Space Marines (need rever titan)
    4,400+ of Cygnar (all models for the faction)
    1,500+ of Legion (just started)

  4. #3
    Senior Member xrix1's Avatar
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    Yes I know, but the people I was talking to were very hung up on the "whole model" thing. Needing to remove whole models overroad notmal assigning of wounds via their argument, and I'm not sure how to approach it again.

    Thanks for the help, it's always good to double check here just to make sure I'm not the one who is wrong.

  5. #4
    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    yeah you seem to have it BGB p 27 "creatures with more than one wound"
    interesting little paragraph, i'm not sure if the floating wound concept is correct tarzen, as this section definatly is talking about singular models.
    i know where you are coming from, but it seems to be a cyclinder model kind of issue, makes things easier, but harder at the same time.

  6. #5
    Son of LO tarzen's Avatar
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    121 (x8)

    Whole model- the removal of which prevents you placing 1 wound on all 9 ravaners, thus keeping them alive after 9 wounds inflicted.

    So-9 ravaners (2 wound models) take 9 wounding hits from some heavy bolters- By the rules, that would cause enough wounds to remove 4 whole models and float a wound on the squad.

    Now say the same squad takes 2 lascannon shots, and 3 heavy bolters: this would kill 3 and float a wound, as per page 24. Many will try and argue that you could put a bolter hit on one and then kill it with the lascannon wound, but this ignores removing models without a save first.

    That said, if the unit already had a wound floating, and it took a HB wound and a LC wound, you would still have to remove 2 as per the whole "can't spread wounds to prevent removing models".


    edit-splatta- check under multi wound models (not the unit section) and it clearly tells you about the floating notion. If not, then you could certainly spread wounds based on LOS and range and other such goodies.
    My armies:
    16,000+ of Eldar (only need flyers)
    7,000+ of Nids (want heirophant)
    6,000+ of Space Marines (need rever titan)
    4,400+ of Cygnar (all models for the faction)
    1,500+ of Legion (just started)

  7. #6
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    Umm . . . make them show you where the rulebook says that a model that's taken a wound is a partial model?

  8. #7
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    381 (x8)

    What is an insta-killing wound in rules terms? There is a wound to be allocated. The rule tells you that it must be allocated to the suit that has already been wounded. The wound is allocated, and *then* that model suffers instant death as a result of being allocated a wound with str double its toughness.

    Nowhere on p27 does it tell you to in any way alter the method by which wounds are allocated because one or more of them happens to be S double the target's T. In addition the multi wounds rule only tells you to remove a whole "model" where possible. No requirement to maximize the total wounds suffered by the squad.

    The definition of a "whole model" being "a model that hasn't taken any wounds" would break the entire rule! =)

  9. #8
    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    159 (x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by InquisitorAffe View Post
    What is an insta-killing wound in rules terms? There is a wound to be allocated. The rule tells you that it must be allocated to the suit that has already been wounded. The wound is allocated, and *then* that model suffers instant death as a result of being allocated a wound with str double its toughness.

    Nowhere on p27 does it tell you to in any way alter the method by which wounds are allocated because one or more of them happens to be S double the target's T. In addition the multi wounds rule only tells you to remove a whole "model" where possible. No requirement to maximize the total wounds suffered by the squad.

    The definition of a "whole model" being "a model that hasn't taken any wounds" would break the entire rule! =)

    what?? did you read one line but not the next?
    it says"you must remove whole multiple-Wound models from the unit as casulaties where possible"

    tarzen - doyou mean the "piece of scrap paper" comment? in that section it is only talking about creatures, as if squads don't exist, so i'm not sure if your right. it seems to be singling out members of a multi-wounds squad individually, so for instance if a scenario with a model in the open and the rest of the units models are beihind a wall, only the wounds occur to that model in the open, not the rest of the squad.
    as a most basic scenario...

  10. #9
    Member skyfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splata View Post
    what?? did you read one line but not the next?
    it says"you must remove whole multiple-Wound models from the unit as casulaties where possible"
    Actually, because of this very line I would think that it is not the Commander but the Bodyguard that must take the hit, regardless of whether you use the floating wound system described by tarzen or the "model x has taken y wounds" system.

    The Bodyguard has only 2 wounds, correct? And he had one already taken away (OR in the floating system, the unit already had taken a wound). I think you should completely ignore the fact that the lascannon would insta-kill the models because what's at issue is wound placement, and as InquisitorAffe said, you don't get an insta-kill if no wound has been caused.

    Since the Commander would not be killed by a single wound (for now ignoring insta-kill!) and the Bodyguard would, I feel the wound should be directed toward the Bodyguard -- this would be removing a "whole" model instead of ending up with a wounded Commander (subsequently vaporized) and a wounded Bodyguard.

    I hope that made sense! If I've made some errors of logic or rule interpretation, please let me know :)
    Last edited by skyfish; June 17th, 2007 at 14:45. Reason: clarification

  11. #10
    Monkey of Mystery The Paint Monkey's Avatar
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    743 (x8)

    This is a really tricky situation and I hope you appreciated what a completely reasonable guy your opponent must have been. What a sterling attitude to sportsmanship!


    It's tricky because, by the letter of the law, the commander is vapour but in this instance that is pretty unfair on the Tau player. I also don't belive that it is the intent or spirit of the rule. I think I would have suggested to the guy to take the bodyguard model off (he threw himself into the beam or something- you know, all 'for the greater good' silliness) or at least take a 50/50 die roll for it. I'd feel bad taking out a commander by what is effectively a rules hiccup but I wouldn't go as far as to say it was wrong to remove the commander model.
    No more NG spearmen, thanks! Now I need some pump-wagons!

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