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Ok. So let's say I've got a Hive Tyrant with Two Tyrant guard in base to base with a group of terminators.
When the terminators get their initiative step, what can they target?
Assume a squad of five terminators
Two in base to base with the tyrant and at least one guard
The remaining three are within 2" of b-t-b models.
Basically I'm asking if they get to pick out the tyrant. The rules for MCs don't state any pick-out-in-assault rules, so I figure they have to follow the basic rules for targeting "units" e.g. they attack the "Tyrant + Guard" unit.
Now assume I'm right in the above paragraph. Let's consider two situations:
1) The terminators score only a single wounding hit. Who has the option of taking the wound?
In this case, 1 wound for 3 models does not allow my opponent to nominate the first model to make a save (Ref: BGB page 41 - Armour Saves). As such, I am allowed to place wounds on any model, subject to the rule: Whole models must be removed if possible. Since I cannot remove a whole model, I choose to place it on the tyrant.
Assuming I'm still correct. What if, in the next round of combat, I suffer three wounds? Would I then have to continue placing wounds on the tyrant or could I remove a tyrant guard?
This question arises because of the unique nature of the idea of a "unit" with differing wounds. I am required by rules to remove whole models, but if I cannot, it is left up to me which models take the wounds... This confuses me.
2) The terminators score four wounding hits, nominating the tyrant as the first to make a save (Ref: BGB page 41 - Armour Saves). Am I forced to continue wounding the tyrant as above or may I remove a whole guard model to resolve two of the three remaining wounds? What can I do with the fourth wound?
I want to be able to kill the guard. That would be best, yes.
I know this is long, but thanks in advance!!
DISCLAIMER: I might've totally screwed up in this post, but I think I'm saying what I mean to say ;) If anyone sees something I messed up, PLEASE correct it.
A Hive Tyrant is not an Independent Character, so in that respect it is not treated as its own unit in close combat.
A player may choose to single out models in a unit which have differing WS or T, but because the Tyrant is equal to its Guard, this also does not apply.Therefore: Correct, the Tyrant may not be singled out.
1) Yes, in this first case you may assign the wound to any model and allow it to attempt its save (unless of course the wound was inflicted with, say, a power fist). If you receive three more wounds in the following round, my belief is that you can remove a Guard instead of the Tyrant (because one model is one model, even if there is a leftover wound). I may be wrong about this, so I'd wait for input from someone else.
2) Again, in my opinion you should be able to bounce a Guard and then allocate the final wound to either of the remaining models. And again, I may be very wrong!
There is an alternative (but valid) system for allocating wounds in which the unit itself receives wounds, not the individual models. So, using that system, as soon as two wounds are dealt you would remove a Guard. The next two wounds remove the second Guard, etc. This is still subject to rules of engagement, LOS, and so on.
Last edited by skyfish; June 20th, 2007 at 03:12. Reason: outdated information
Awesome reply. Thanks a lot. I'm curious, however. Where is the ability to single out targets with differing WS/T stated? Never even heard of that before!
there is no such rule. at least not in the rule book. and that is what i go by.
the BGB uses majority toughness so say you have 4 t2 modeland 1 t8 model, all models are counted as t2 as this is the majority.
same as above for WS, as it is assumed that your friendlies who are useless at combat are just getting in the way.
so you may not pick out units, and the "floating" wound system is what is written in the BGB, you have a piece of paper for the squad with the amount of wounds taken for the squad as a whole, when this value goes over the amount of wounds of a single model in that squad it dies.
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On what Splata said, this has always confused me- does this mean if they have 4 hits made against them @ toughness 6, that the t8 model can die on a 2+?? it seems a little stupid & (typically) overly "simplistic"??the BGB uses majority toughness so say you have 4 t2 modeland 1 t8 model, all models are counted as t2 as this is the majority
I doubt the guards have similar toughness to the Hive Tyrant so this situation (with NFW) would also affect the situation above with HoD...
Actually. The guards have identical toughness (both T6). What is NFW? My question does not regard varying toughness units. That is very clearly explained in the BGB. Nor is it about shooting, as that is very clear in the Tyranid Codex (A hive tyrant with tyrant guard may not be picked out as a separate target from its unit despite the fact that it is a monstrous creature). My question is about target selection for Tyrant + Guard in assault. Does the statement in parentheses apply to that? E.G. the terminators basically target the unit and can't direct single wounds unless meeting the criteria outlined in the BGB on page 41 (and in that case, can only direct a single save against a single model).
The question about where I can place my wounds is also what I'm asking. If I suffered three wounds, must I remove a guard? If I suffer only one wound, am I permitted to place it on the tyrant? If not, must every time I reach two wounds in the unit cause me to lose a guard? For Independent Characters, this is very clear, since they are treated as a separate unit (stated in the IC section of the BG.
Doesn't the shield wall special rule come into play with nids?
Last edited by Karmoon; June 20th, 2007 at 12:20. Reason: foolish spelling
LO RulesOriginally Posted by AnonymousOriginally Posted by Cyric
absolutely correct, on page 36 in the Tyrannid Codex it states that the Hive Tyrant with the Tyrant Guard stop it from being picked out as a seperate target. This means that you will have to eliminate the Guard first (hence their name "Guard") before you can select the Hive Tyrant as a target.
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Ignore anything I said above about wound placement on specific models ;) As feared, I was confused!
(EDIT: This is only in the case of multiwound models, which use the floating wound system. For single unit models, the enemy can certainly attempt to knock out a specific enemy before other saves are rolled.)
Lastly, the rule Q&A in Chapter Approved 2004 were regarding 40k 3e, and so have been replaced by the current 4e rules. I hope I didn't muddy the waters too much on my first post. Sorry about that!
Last edited by skyfish; June 20th, 2007 at 18:54. Reason: addendum