Close combat weapons and determining number of attacks - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member MurekZar's Avatar
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    Close combat weapons and determining number of attacks

    This may be a very stupid question, but I want to be sure... How many close combat attacks do you count for models that have A1 in their profile and :

    1. that carry a special one-handed CC weapon (e.g. an Eldar Shining Spear, who carries a Laser Lance counting as a high strength power weapon when charging), and for which the profile does not indicate that they have any other CC weapon;

    2. that carry a pistol (in addition to another shooting weapon), but for which the profile does not indicate that they carry two CC weapons (e.g. an Eldar Ranger).
    I take my examples from the Eldar Codex, but I'm sure there are similar cases in most armies...

    My personal interpretation for case 2 (Ranger example) is that the models get 2 attacks (3 when charging). This is on basis of BGB p46 (Close Combat Weapons - Chainswords / Axes / Pistols, Etc.) : "There is a bewildering array of close combat weapons, all of which confer no bonus to the Strength of the combatants. However, swords and pistols (or similar hand weapons) gain the wielder an additional close combat attack. [...]".

    For case 1 (Shining Spear example) I would tend to say that the special CC weapon does not give an extra attack, so the models would just get 1 base attack, 2 when charging. However I am not sure, because of BGB p40 (+1 Two Weapons) "Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) have an extra +1 attack for every turn of close combat. [...] ". Do we have to consider that the Shining Spear has one base attack from an undefined CC weapon (it seems that any model is provided with one base attack of "something" ), then add one extra attack because it has a one-handed CC weapon (the Laser Lance) ?

    I am confused because on basis of the p46 rule, a single pistol or sword gives an extra attack on its own. Therefore the p40 rule is not necessary for models whose profile indicates that they have one pistol / sword / .... So should we read the p40 rule as indication that all models carry one undefined CC weapon that gives them their A1 base profile attack ?


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  3. #2
    Senior Member PrOtOcoN's Avatar
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    Let me see if I understand you correctly.
    You have a unit (lets leave it undefined) which has a single attack on its profile.
    It is then equipped with a one handed weapon (eg. power sword, power fist, the eldar lance thingamajig etc.) and a pistol.

    Now, lets take a look at it.
    It has one attack at its base. An extra attack for the pistol, due its club like and/or usefulness in close combat.
    The model has a total of two attacks, three on the charge.

    Hope it helps!

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  4. #3
    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
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    Models equipped with TWO (2) one-handed close combat weapon gains a +1 attack to their profile and models gets an additional +1 attack on the turn they charge into combat, but these bonus attacks may be negated by opponent's special abilities (Dark Eldar Wyches) or grenades (Photon Grenade) etc.

    Now in your case of the Shining Spears, the laser lance is *NOT* a one-handed weapon nor it's a two-handed weapon word-wise (but the model would convince you that it should be a 2-handed.. or common sense should tell you that a lance should be a 2-handed), because it doesnt give us any specific detail on wether this weapon would be one-handed or two-handed. You cannot assume that it's a one-handed weapon just because it doesnt say that it's not, nor can you start assuming that it's a two-handed weapon because it doesnt say that it's not. There are alot of weapons that 'count as power weapon' because power weapon means no armour save, it doesnt automatically becomes a one-handed weapon. For example, Witch Hunter Blessed Weapon, it's a two-handed weapon that counts as a master-crafted power weapon.. does it become a one-handed just because it's a power weapon? or Eldrad Ulthran's Staff of Ulthamar counts as power weapon but it is a two-handed staff, it doesnt change its profile to a one-handed weapon. There is always that controversial subject on the Callidus Assassin and her C'tan phase sword, wether it should be a one-handed or two-handed is not clearly specified so players are playing by the words.

    Hope that helped.
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  5. #4
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    All weapons, unless specified otherwise, are one-handed (The one-handed/two-handed system is largely something that only Imperial/Chaos codices do). This is implicit, but when weapons are two handed, this is specified in the weapons' rules (so anything without that proviso must be one-handed).

    Laser lances are one-handed weapons, but shining spears don't have another weapon to add +1 attack. Likewise for Eldar Rangers - while they have a pistol, they have no 2nd weapon to allow themselves an extra attack.

    Nekochen - The staff of Ulthamar is not a two-handed weapon. And the C'Tan phase sword doesn't matter since the assassin has no weapon to combine it with for an extra attack (the neuro-disruptor is not a pistol).

    and

    (but the model would convince you that it should be a 2-handed.. or common sense should tell you that a lance should be a 2-handed)
    Umm. Lances generally are one-handed weapons, even the models hold the lance in one hand. (See also knights of old and knights in warhammer - they use lances one-handed)


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  6. #5
    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    All weapons, unless specified otherwise, are one-handed (The one-handed/two-handed system is largely something that only Imperial/Chaos codices do). This is implicit, but when weapons are two handed, this is specified in the weapons' rules (so anything without that proviso must be one-handed).
    Please give quotes from the rulebook to back up your claims. Of course, getting that extra attack would be lovely. I would love to know if I've been playing my game wrong for the past years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    Laser lances are one-handed weapons, but shining spears don't have another weapon to add +1 attack. Likewise for Eldar Rangers - while they have a pistol, they have no 2nd weapon to allow themselves an extra attack.
    Where does it say that Laser Lances are One-handed weapon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    Umm. Lances generally are one-handed weapons, even the models hold the lance in one hand. (See also knights of old and knights in warhammer - they use lances one-handed)
    Lances are generally neither one-handed or two-handed. Yes, it's true they use it with only one hand on the charge, but it's a one-use only weapon. Once the lance hits the shield/armour of the victim, the lance shatters. Besides, have you ever seen the size of that thing, please tell me how you are going to swing that thing around with only one-hand after the charge if it doesnt shatter.
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  7. #6
    Advocatus Diaboli Rork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekochen View Post
    Please give quotes from the rulebook to back up your claims. Of course, getting that extra attack would be lovely. I would love to know if I've been playing my game wrong for the past years.
    A weapon can only ever be one-handed or two-handed. Weapons that require two hands will be labelled as such. Anything else must be one-handed, unless somehow you've got a race with three arms.

    Where does it say that Laser Lances are One-handed weapon?
    Codex: Eldar, pg 60.

    And you'll notice that laser lances don't work in an ongoing combat...


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  8. #7
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    A weapon can only ever be one-handed or two-handed. Weapons that require two hands will be labelled as such. Anything else must be one-handed, unless somehow you've got a race with three arms.



    Codex: Eldar, pg 60.

    And you'll notice that laser lances don't work in an ongoing combat...
    Hi,
    this great news for all Dark Eldar players as the debate about Shredders and Blasters being one or two handed is now settled. By the way if someone asks for evidence of this fact can you please give me a page reference?
    Cheers.
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  9. #8
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    Just to address a problem in the OP that seems to have been overlooked. A ranger does *not* get a bonus attack because he has a pistol. The profile needs to explicitly state the model is equipped with two one handed weapons. He doesn't count the pistol "in addition" to his boot knife/tree branch/crazy space elf kungfu or whatever it is models that do not explicitly carry any one handed weapon fight with. (see p40)

  10. #9
    Ahhhhh.... nekochen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rork View Post
    A weapon can only ever be one-handed or two-handed. Weapons that require two hands will be labelled as such. Anything else must be one-handed, unless somehow you've got a race with three arms.
    That's just your assumption. You are assuming all weapons are one-handed otherwise specified, but no where in the rulebook nor in the FAQs specify such.
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  11. #10
    Gone LittleBlueMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekochen View Post
    That's just your assumption. You are assuming all weapons are one-handed otherwise specified, but no where in the rulebook nor in the FAQs specify such.
    If you only can have 1-handed weapons and 2-handed weapons and only the 2-handed weapons are labelled it is implied that the ones not labeled are 1-handed weapons. It is not like they only labeled 1/2 of the two-handed models.

    --

    Rangers do not get the extra attack for having a pistol, they would need another Close Combat One Handed weapons for that. The pistol is included to allow the models to shoot and charge or for fluff reasons.

    Dark Angels do not get the extra attack despite being armed with (I think) a pistol and a bolter. The pistol is so the Dark Angels can shoot and charge into CC. Also it makes sense that they would have a pistol.

    Also, those little daggers/knives a lot of models (*cough*spacemarines*cough*) carry are generally just for show.
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