40K VWMkIV - Round #4 - Battle #45 - Blood Angels versus Black Legion

[Caluin]

Please see this thread on how to participate in these games. I want to stress to everyone that the mission means everything. He who stands the best way to score Victory Points should be the winner. All missions have the Infiltration, Deep Strike, and Victory Points special rules.

Mission Type - Cleanse



Blood Angels

HQ: 247
Elites: 0
Troops: 789
Fast Attack: 520
Heavy Support: 295


Master of Sanctity Chaplain (Attached to Death Company):
Bolt Pistol; Frag Grenades; Terminator Honors; Jump Pack

Death Company:
Feel No Pain; Bolt Pistols; Close Combat Weapon.
(Variable amount of models – see Tactics section)

Venerable Dreadnought:
Twin Linked Lascannon; Missile Launcher; Extra Armor; Tank Hunters.

5x Tactical squad Marines:
3x Bolters; 1x Lascannon
Veteran Sergeant with Bolter

5x Tactical squad Marines:
3x Bolters; 1x Lascannon
Veteran Sergeant with Bolter

5x Tactical squad Marines:
3x Bolters; 1x Lascannon
Veteran Sergeant with Bolter

10x Scout Squad Marines:
9x Bolt Pistols & CCW; Infiltration; Move Through Cover
Veteran Sergeant:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

10x Scout Squad Marines:
9x Bolt Pistols & CCW; Infiltration; Move Through Cover
Veteran Sergeant:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

10x Scout Squad Marines:
9x Bolt Pistols & CCW; Infiltration; Move Through Cover
Veteran Sergeant:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

10x Assault squad Marines:
Jump Packs; 7x Bolt Pistol & CCW; 2x Plasma Pistol & CCW
Veteran Sergeant:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

10x Assault squad Marines:
Jump Packs; 7x Bolt Pistol & CCW; 2x Plasma Pistol & CCW
Veteran Sergeant:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

Baal Predator:
Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons; Extra Armor


Blood angle special rules-
Everything with a WS gets furious Charge.
Death company: Any Chaplain is given a deathcompany for free, the average is 5.
Death company and the chaplain get the following special rules-
Feel no pain.
Death company get jump packs.
Death company are base two attacks, they are armed with bolt pistols and CCWs, and thus gain another attack.
On a 4+ per squad, 1 member of that squad goes to the death company, if that member is a sgt, hes armed with a power fist/sword.
IF a 6 is rolled, another test is required for the squad.

Simply put there will be 5 + the number of squads in the army divided by 2. In this case 4 is the most likely, for a total of 9 + the chaplain.
Death company Sgts will be pulled from the scouts and tactical squads. The most likely event is that one Sgt will be pulled from the scouts and troops. There are still two more possible members pulled, one from the assault squad, and one more from the troops.

Deathcompany Results: scouts 1 Sgt taken, tactical 1 Sgt taken. Assault squads, 1 member taken. The final member is equally likely to come from the scouts or the troops. Since the blood angle hopes it will come from the tactical, it will.

Final results: Chaplain, 2 power fisted DC, 1 power sword DC, 6 Normal DC.

Keep in mind, there is one missing scout Sgt, 2 missing Sgts from the troops, and 1 missing assault squad members. Death company count as casualties for the purposes of moral/victory points.



----------------------

Black Legion
Chaos Space Marines

HQ: 90
Elites: 596
Troops: 669
Fast Attack: 295
Heavy Support: 199


Chaos Lieutenant:
Mark of Nurgle; Infiltrate; Kai Gun

8x Khornate Berserkers:
7x Chainaxes & Bolt Pistols
Aspiring Champion:
Talisman of Burning Blood; Powerfist and Bolt Pistol

8x Khornate Berserkers:
7x Chainaxes & Bolt Pistols
Aspiring Champion:
Talisman of Burning Blood; Powerfist and Bolt Pistol

3x Obliterators:
Body Weapons

7x Plague Marines:
Infiltrate; True Grit; 4x Bolters & CCW; 2x Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist & Bolter

7x Plague Marines:
Infiltrate; True Grit; 4x Bolters & CCW; 2x Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist & Bolter

6x Plague Marines:
Infiltrate; True Grit; 3x Bolters & CCW; 2x Plasma Gun
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist & Bolter

5x Chaos Space Marines:
4x Bolt Pistol & CCW; 1x Lascannon

8x Raptors:
Daemonic Flight; Daemonic Visage; 4x Bolt Pistol & CCW; 3x Meltagun
Aspiring Champion:
Power fist & Bolt Pistol

7x Havoc Squad:
Tank Hunters; 3x Bolt Pistol & CCW; 4x Autocannon



Strategy:
The HQ is attached to the 6 man Plague squad.

The Plague Marines infiltrate onto objectives or into cover. They can choose to hold ground (if on an objective or against a cc opponent) or advance (towards an objective or shooty army). If the Plague marines get stuck into a cc, they'll rely on their resilience to keep them fighting until a dedicated cc squad arrives (which shouldn't be long with jump packs or blood frenzy).

The Plague Marines themselves can deal with horde troops (5 toughness, 3+ save, true grit), MEQ's/monstrous creatures (2 plasma guns, powerfist), and light tanks (2 plasma guns). Even if they get bogged down, a Berzeker charge will help even things out. Raptors can act as anti tank or "tie up" a cc unit with hit and run (especially nice against wyches). The Havocs cover anti tank, while the Obliterators and Lascannon squad are security against Moniliths (melta guns work too). Obliterators help out in whatever role they're needed in.

[tiaxrulesall]

-Blood Angels

-the predator/dread and the havocs cancel each other out. that leaves 21 plauge marines 16 berzerkers, and 8 raptors to deal with 27 BA scouts, 19 BA assault marines, and 9 death company. that is a CC battle that i think the BA will win.

[Caluin]

Originally Posted by tiaxrulesall

-the predator/dread and the havocs cancel each other out. that leaves 21 plauge marines 16 berzerkers, and 8 raptors to deal with 30 BA scouts, 20 BA assault marines, and 9 death company. that is a CC battle that i think the BA will win.

Not discounting your vote at all, but you've done something that drives me nuts about Blood Angels in VoteWar - if you're going to add numbers to the Death Company, then you need to account for the loss of members of the other squads.

[tiaxrulesall]

-edited origional post to incude lost DC guys.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

I dont think it makes much of a differance to say, 29 scouts, instead of 30 scouts.

Or likewise for anyother unit. Espeically since it is so clearly writen above in the deathcompany explanation.

The deathcompany will do well against plasma guns and can assault them while they are still isolated from the rest of the chaos army.

27 scouts and nearly 30 assault marines can quickly gain up on the nurgle guys in CC, where they would be outnumbered 20 to almost 60 + a bunch of bolter marines.

The death company will select all powerweapons, this allows them to assault through any single squad without taking wounds in return:

7 nurgle dudes VS DC + Chaplain.

Note, the number of deathcompany does not matter, since only 3 + the chaplain need strike.

Chaplain: 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3 dead. (rounding up, ill round the power swords so that there is no bonus gained)

12 powersword attacks, 9 hits, 4 wounds, rounding down.

Thus 7 dead. So the most powerful nurgle squad is killed before they can strike in CC.

Now, an assault + scout squad should be able to charge the nurgle on turn two.

Giving both squads losses, say 6 scouts, and 8 assault marines.

Its the blood angles turn, they can shoot:

12 bolts between both squads, 8 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead.

2 plasma, 1 hits, 1 dead.

Now, the scouts and the assault marines stirke with the same profile, so:

12 models, 3 attacks, 36 attacks, 18 wounds, 9 wounds, 3 dead.

That leaves 2 nurgle alive.

1 nugle normal attacks, 2, 1 hit, 1 wound, 0 dead.

nugle powerfist: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 dead assault marines, since they are more valuable (although they could hit the scouts and scoring half the victory points for them)

Now the blood angles powerfist, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 dead, nurgle destoryed.

Important-

So the blood angles are far superior in assault.

The blood angles can use there tactical squads, and vehicels to take table quarters.

While the scouts + assault squads can destory the chaos army.

The obliterators can be shot at by 4 Lascannons a turn, while the baal will mow down the raptors.

Once the obilterators are destoryed, the firesupport for the blood angles will start taking table quarters, the tactical squads will take a table quarter when they blood rage, allowing them 6D extra movement, this allows them to get into another table quarter is probably a single turn of movement, thus allowing them to quickly get back to shooting at something.

Blood Angles, fluf to the angles, chaos leader is to weak to lead a hord like this..

[LordLink]

3 oblitz deep-strike next to the assault marines and rapid-fire plasma at them. 6 shots, 5-6 hits and 5 wounds (possibly 4). thats one assault squad devastated beyond the point of usefullness (50% casualties). Pred is dead 1st turn to autocannons, its assault cannon on average will kill 2 havocs then it dies. Dread doesnt have any targets until the oblitz deep-strike so it will die to autocannons before doing anything useful and thats assuming the lascannon doesnt kill it 1st turn.

Also your maths is faulty, marines hurt nurgle on 5+ so lower those wounds. Average on 9 hits is 3 wounds... 5 hits = 1 wound. only 4 plague marines down here... and this is of course assuming you dont get kai gun and plasma'd to death 1st. 12 plasma shots and and a kai gun can do a lot of damage. (unless death company has extra strength does it?)

scouts stand no chance against the superior chaos marines. That leaves assault marines... I believe they may do some damage to the plague marines but then the oblitz deep-strike and will take em out with the aid of some raptors, they are far superior to assault marines in cc. its then good ol' chappie vs 16 khorne berserkers.

Blood Angels have no effective shooting except 1 assault cannon so 16 berserkers will make the assault in full numbers.

And even if Blood Angels do win cc some how then they cant reach the shooty squads to kill them. Black Legion gets an entire game of free shooting.

[Caluin]

Originally Posted by LordLink

Also your maths is faulty, marines hurt nurgle on 5+ so lower those wounds. Average on 9 hits is 3 wounds... 5 hits = 1 wound.

Except on the first turn that Blood Angels charge, since they have Furious Charge.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

3 oblitz deep-strike next to the assault marines and rapid-fire plasma at them.

So, the oblitz deep strike turn two? Assault squads in CC during turn two.

Further more, there a horendus risk of losing the obliterators, probably not worth such risk on a unit which costs 210 points.

Further more, the assault squad would, and could strike back...

Plus youve now gut a rediciouls number of other squads surrounding the obilteraters, the cheer number of bolter/lascannons shots would remove them on the turn they arrive. The tactic would not disrupt the blood angles adavnce, nor would help black legion take table quarters.

So besides your total disgrade for tactics your math is also wrong.

6 twinlinked plamsa shots: 5 hits, 4 wound. The squad is not below 50%

Do you know what furious charge is? If so, then you must account for it.

Further more, the nugle cannot rapid fire first turn.

scouts stand no chance against the superior chaos marines. That leaves assault marines... I believe they may do some damage to the plague marines but then the oblitz deep-strike and will take em out with the aid of some raptors, they are far superior to assault marines in cc. its then good ol' chappie vs 16 khorne berserkers.

Excuse me?

Note this is not a realistic battle field situation, since both the scouts and the bezerks would be shot at.

First off, scouts are wicked deadly in CC.

With furious charge, 10 scouts VS 10 bezerkers

Scouts strike first: 27 attacks, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 3 dead.

Bezerkers strike back, 18 attacks, 9 hits, 5 wounds, 3 dead.

Each powerfist kills two.

Scouts can indeed rivial bezerkers in assault.

Against Assault marines, the bezerkers will do even worse.

Shot up death company VS untouched korn squad.

Chaplain, 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3 dead.

12 powerswords attacks: 9 hits, 6 wounds.

2 Death company members 8 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1 dead.

Thats 10 wounds. Bezerkers are destoryed before they can strike back.

The death company alone, can basically jump between unit to unit, destorying everything as they go.

The scouts arent needed, they are simply there to take hits, slow things down, and dirupt the enemy, the fact that they are increably good in assault is simply an added bonus.

Blood Angels have no effective shooting except 1 assault cannon so 16 berserkers will make the assault in full numbers.

Its a twinlinked assault cannon, there are also two heavy bolters which come with it.

Do you not consider lascannon effective shooting? Because there are 3 of those.

Theres also a twinlinked version on the dreadnought, as well as another ML.

There are also 4 plasma guns in throught the assault squads.

So far, most of your reasoning has been incorrent, and youve presented no way for the static shooty squads of the black legion to take table quarters.

Your entired to your opinion, but i think you should at least come up with A) correct stats or solid tactics to show how the black legion might win this game.

Personally i see almost no way for them to overcome the increable assault ability of the blood angles, with the superior numbers, and just almost equal firepower of the blood angles.

[LordLink]

ah yes sorry about my maths 4.4 marines die and I didnt notice furious charge. But lets put this into a different context. Lets pretend the plague marines dont infiltrate forwards but in fact set up with the rest of the army. Now the blood angels have to endure shooting.

Black Legion gets 3 rounds of shooting at 24" before the assault. (once at 24", 18", 12")
Im not really factoring in shooting at greater ranges. If the blood angels advance through cover they are slowed down and run the risk of not reaching the chaos before they are gunned down. Assault marines dont disrupt shooting as raptors just meet the early charge.

Like I said before autocannons easily take out the tanks.
Oblitz choose not to deep-strike and set up with the army.
Oblitz fire their 3 lascannons at the dreadnought killing it or at least incapacitating it.
Kai Gun fires at death company killing 1
20 bolters-13 hit-7wound-1 or 2 more dead death company.
lascannons will admittedely take out oblitz well

By now approx 2 oblitz are dead, predator is dead, dreadnought is dead.
lone obliterator fires a lascannon at the death company-1 down, oblit then dies to lascannnons
kai gun strikes again meaning-1 more down
20 bolters again mean 1 or 2 down. 6 death company down
Autocannons fire at scouts-6hit-5wound-5 dead. 4 if theyre in light cover (meaning they are slowed down so unlikely, same goes for death company)

The 3rd round of firing sees an end to the death company except for chaplain. More scout marines die to autocannons. Raptors get to fire their meltaguns if theyre not already in cc with the assault marines.

The cc capabilities of the black legion is now far stronger than the blood angels. Of course feel free to disagree. Also odds are berserkers and raptors get the charge so you cant factor those attacks in.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

ah yes sorry about my maths 4.4 marines die and I didnt notice furious charge. But lets put this into a different context. Lets pretend the plague marines dont infiltrate forwards but in fact set up with the rest of the army. Now the blood angels have to endure shooting.

...scouts have infiltrate as well.

So they will get two turns of shooting, no more.

The jump infantry can assault anything buy turn two.

Blood Angles also have a small unprodicatable movement bonus, which may allow a scout squad to charge first turn. (if placed out of LOS and about 12 inches away from the enemy, Obviously they wouldnt placed next to the bezerkers, since they have a better version of basically the same rule)

Like I said before autocannons easily take out the tanks.

Unlike the static squads of devs, a preditor is a mobile weapons platform.

So in the first turn, its gonna stay out LOS. Thus allowing it at least one turn of shooting.

Oblitz choose not to deep-strike and set up with the army.
Oblitz fire their 3 lascannons at the dreadnought killing it or at least incapacitating it.

Dreadnoughts are mobile weapons platforms, they start out of LOS.

Kai Gun fires at death company killing 1

Fine, but what ever squad hes in, will be assautly by turn two, and propably destoryed.

20 bolters-13 hit-7wound-1 or 2 more dead death company.

1 death company only.
However, on turn one, there will be 0 bolter shots on the death company, the nurgle dont infiltrate. All other bolters would obviously be out of range.

So you can take out maybe 3 DC if you exausht the magority of your shooting into them. After that, none of which matters, since they can crush any squad in CC.



Now, assuming for a moment that chaos gets the first turn, as you seem to think will happen,
The scouts 2 scout squads shoot the korn bezerkers, while one squad moves twards the havics.

The baal moves up, twards the havics

DC + assault squads move 12 inches up, they are now half way, or more, across the battle field.

The Baal shoots the Havics:
Twinlinked AC: 66% chance of rend: 1 rend, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead + 1 rend dead.
Heavy bolters: 6 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead.

the dreadnought, and 3 lascannon squads, fire at the obliterators:

2 normal lascannon hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead.

Dreadnought, twinlinked Lascannon, 1 hit, 1 dead.

Scout shoot at the bezekers, since most likely, both squads jumped forward,
10 shots, 7 hits, 4 wounds. 1 dead.

Scouts charge, see above, they kill 3.

Bezekers: 15 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2 dead.

Each fist kills 2.

Bezekers lose combat.

More to come later.