40K VWMkIV - Final Round - Final Battle - Orks versus Blood Angels

[Terzo]

But as far as I'm aware, the bolt pistols cannot be fired if they get blood rage.

Nope, that's only Khornate blood frenzy. Black rage still lets you fire.

I cant find fault with Ezekiels maths whereas you are still claiming the chaplain will beat the warboss.

Who cares about that; neither counts as a scoring unit, forged only wanted to emphasize that for fluff reasons.

Like I said before the Blood Angels are not going to have anyone left over 50% either.

Who exactly will be able to cut the death company below half?

14 scouts you say. Why not 12 assault marines and 12 scouts? thats only a few more scouts that need to be killed.

Sure, that works; but then who's killing the predator? Remember, he counts as a scoring unit too. The dread is still hanging around as well, as he'll probably risk rocket fire in the later turns to move towards the objective.

I cant find fault with Ezekiels maths whereas you are still claiming the chaplain will beat the warboss.

Notice Ezekiels math lead him to conclude a slight advantage in victory points for the Blood Angels, which is technically a draw. Nothing about orks winning.

Besides, that's why you gang up on the ork squads. The jump packs have the mobility to coordinate, and it practically nullifies the ork's response. The death company, as shown, can nearly clear out an ork squad by itself.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

Ezekiel does not account for chaplain rerolls, or that the DC takes 2 powerweapons.

His shooting stats are also wrong.

Powerfists kill 2 orcs on the charge, or one orc not on the charge, they only need to kill 4 orcs to pay for the scout, the veteran abilitliy, and fist. Since they will kill nearly double that, i wouldnt call the fists worthless.

I just quite simply believe that if 150 orks sit on the objective the BA dont have the power to kick them off. Orks have 150 people running at the objective. BA have 30 scouts already on it and 20 assault marines flying towards it.

And 9 DC + 1 chaplain with jump packs flying towards it as well.

The Death company can kill the ork HQ but they dont need to. Instead they can simply assault his squad, with an assault squad, and leave the nob alive, then sweep them, uber easy. You have no counter to this.

Excluding ravenwing, you will never find an army most suited for killing orcs then this one.
Scouts are the ideal counter to orcs, they get at least 2 attacks in CC, and they have a 4+ armour save, and greater strength, all for only 4 points more then an orc. Those scouts are backed up by best CC squad space marines can field, bar none. Followed by two increadably very good assault squads, which out proform normal ones, and work wounders against orcs.
They field a baal, a tank which is purefly suited for hunting hords, they field a dreadnought, mostly designed for anti tanks, but can get into assault, adding model count, more quickly allowing the orcs to be swept. short of making a list simply disigned to kill orcs, (which would look fiarly simliar to this anyway) this is the best marine list you could take, to counter orks.

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My angles die the way they would have liked to, slaughtering the enemies of the emperor. They should have been victorious on this day, yet they gods of votewar intervened. Not even the emperor himself could overcome them. The angles have come and did what they set out to do, kill the warboss. With the orc warband leaderless, it would surely break down as infighting arrose, it would be a long time before another rose to the postion of warboss.
Surely a seat at the golden throne will be reseaved for them, forever remembered in the emperors honor.

[TheWamp]

Yeah, I think I vote Blood Angles

Numbers are nice, but they don't win a war, and in this case they might lose it. The ork force is incredibly unwieldy and large, and they will have a hard time using their entire force together or at once. The blood angles, however, have a much faster, smaller, maneuverable force, despite blood rage, and to top it off, their scouts can deploy heavily to one side with infiltrate, and the jump troops can follow meaning that they can take the army in waves.

Powerfists are anything but wasted. Sure, they don't do any armor cutting, since there's almost none to cut, but they help wound which is a huge asset, and ork squads aren't powerful enough to take out those BA squads before the fist will hit. Also, since it's likely that orks will be double or triple charged in many cases, I can't see them particularly getting to hit back.

Now sure, I'm making this look simpler than it is, but the big point is that the orks are capable of no strategy but the one listed there, whereas the blood angles can easily play off the horde aspect and fight bits of the ork army at a time, slaughtering each bit and moving on.

Given all that, I really think that as many of us as possible should proxy the ork list and fight it against a list, any list (not for this votewar, but this list seems to reappear again and again), because many people seem to be overestimating the power of numbers. Yes they're good, yes they're very good, but they can be fought and they are not an end all be all.

For fluff, I vote BA, because despite lascannon squads, orks do not have uniform squads entirely identical, and they don't tend to be composed entirely of one kind of unit, without any slaves, vehicles whatever. And if they're poor, how did they find that many sluggas? Maybe the last point wasn't the best, as I'm not an ork fluff-miester, but I really don't think identical squads is at all fluffy for orks.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

Now sure, I'm making this look simpler than it is, but the big point is that the orks are capable of no strategy but the one listed there, whereas the blood angles can easily play off the horde aspect and fight bits of the ork army at a time, slaughtering each bit and moving on.

How true indeed.

Well, 7 to 4, i suppose it might still go either way.

[LordLink]

lol for this fight I think Caluin should just disregard fluff votes altogether. Both armies are so unfluffy to the point of ridiculousness.

The problem with the orks is that they are a solid mass of troops with no variety. This is unfluffy as they are all one kind rather than a mix of orks.

Blood Angels have no tactical marines apart from tiny lascannon squads which happens precisely never in a Space Marine army whereas orks occasionally do just mass weak troops. 30 scout marines and 20 assault marines will never make up the core of a force. A shooty dread for the blood angels...

There was one argument that maybe it was just the scout company grabbed a few assault marines and attacked but honestly... lmao.

Overall I'd vote orks for fluff.

[Ezekiel1990]

[quote=ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]Ezekiel does not account for chaplain rerolls, or that the DC takes 2 powerweapons.

His shooting stats are also wrong.

Excluding ravenwing, you will never find an army most suited for killing orcs then this one.

Wow, I can't help but flat out disagree here.

I use ravenwing against orks frequently, but I can tell you that they are one of the 2 worst armies against orks. Yeah, they wound on 6's against bikers and can't touch skimmers... but if you have 15 orks charging some bikes or even being charged by bikes the bikes are largely screwed. With a 4+ armour save, 40 pt bikers aren't too worth it in assault when they only kill 1-2 orks tht cost about 16 pts. Speeders are great but every single ork weapon that can kill a speeder is range 36", so shooting at them generally means you get shot back. Also, bike turbo boost is wasted because orks don't have much in shooting that ignore armour saves anyways, and you're just gettign closer to them...

And as for saying that you will never find an army more suited to killing orks, well I'll give you an easy one: 60 tau firewarriors with devilfish and 3 hammer heads. Orks can't charge firewarriors because they'll be hiding behin the skimmers (which dont block LOS but still count as an enemy unit so you can't move under/through it). 2 firewarrior squads each shoot 48 shots at the orks, 24 of which hit, 20 of which wound, and the devilfish and drones can blow away the rest. Add to that the fact that the orks can't charge the firewarriors.

Oh and I vote Orks because when I made my calculations it was mostly in the BA favor in which the fight was compressed into one spot rather than the whole board, and realistically speaking the orks aren't going to be fighting one unit at a time.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

And as for saying that you will never find an army more suited to killing orks, well I'll give you an easy one: 60 tau firewarriors with devilfish and 3 hammer heads. Orks can't charge firewarriors because they'll be hiding behin the skimmers (which dont block LOS but still count as an enemy unit so you can't move under/through it). 2 firewarrior squads each shoot 48 shots at the orks, 24 of which hit, 20 of which wound, and the devilfish and drones can blow away the rest. Add to that the fact that the orks can't charge the firewarriors.

Obvoulsy i was refering to marine lists.

Ravenwing speeders can out range orcs, heavy bolters have 36" range, rockets have 30" range.

10 LST will massacure an orc list, thats 30 HB shots a turn, with assault cannons for when the orcs get two close, with enough mobility to hide behind cover, and blast a single orc unit in one turn.

Again you vastly over estimate the orcs, with incorrect statics, and false assumptions. However, your entiled to your opinion.

Oh and I vote Orks because when I made my calculations it was mostly in the BA favor in which the fight was compressed into one spot rather than the whole board, and realistically speaking the orks aren't going to be fighting one unit at a time.

There are more blood angle squads then orc squads, you looked at one squad against one squad, if you look at the armies at a whole, your statics should lead you more twards the blood angles.

The mission is take and hold, so the battle will be mostly in one area, if the ork player is smart.

And as far as armies go, tryanids are best suited to kill orcs.

[Ezekiel1990]

Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar

And as far as armies go, tryanids are best suited to kill orcs.

Like you said, we're entitled to our opinions.

I didn't say that the Tau are the best at killing orks, merely that that particular BA list wasn't the "best army to use against orks excluding Ravenwing".

As for overestimating orks, not really, the first time I went agaisnt them I vastly underestimated their ability to shoot down LSTs (though the guy did get 5's for almost every glancing hit he rolled for).

Both armies are so unfluffy to the point of ridiculousness.

Are you joking?

Hoards of orks lead by da warboss versus blood angels, which just charge with eveything and use their signature tank?

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

I didn't say that the Tau are the best at killing orks, merely that that particular BA list wasn't the "best army to use against orks excluding Ravenwing".

As for overestimating orks, not really, the first time I went agaisnt them I vastly underestimated their ability to shoot down LSTs (though the guy did get 5's for almost every glancing hit he rolled for).

They have no ability to shoot down LST if your out range them. It should be well known to a ravenwing player, that sending your LST head long into the enemy will always fail you.

Unless you've played this blood angles armies, against that orc list, i dont think your personal experaince is a valid reason as to why the orcs win.

Next turn, BA death company charges. Chaplain kills 3 orks, the power sworded death company guy kills 2 orks, and the 5 regular death company guys get 20 attacks, 10 of which hit and 6 wound, for 5 more dead orks.

For example, a death company charges, equiped with 2 powerweapons, the rest normal:

Chaplain, 6 attacks, 5.34 hits, 3.56 dead, rounding up 4 dead.

7 DC, 28 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 11.76 dead.

2 PWs, 8 attacks, 6 hits, 4 dead.

Total: 19.76, 20 dead.

I think you guessed the death company would kill 11.