40K VWMkV - Final Round - Battle #65 - Night Lords versus Siam-Hann Eldar

[Tulugaq]

I think the terminators are going to be pretty effective: taking out one squad on entry, then doing nearly as much damage every turn till they can be taken care of. With deep strike that target is likely to be the squad most likely to be able to do damage back to them.

My responses are pretty much dead, but I felt like I could address this one....

After the first turn that they come down, they are dead. There are too many points sunk into this unit, and there is too much AP2 in the Eldar list, for them to go past one turn of shooting. They can't be relied upon to do sufficient enough damage.

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

Well the extra force for the eldar seems poor at best..

However, the termintors wont do much either, except be juicy victory points.

As i will keep my vote for the eldar.

The eldar can quickly deal with the infantry;

30 starcannon shots: 15 hits, 12,6 wounded, 8.4 dead (cover)

21 skircan cannon shots, 10.5 hits, 8.82 wounds 2.94 dead

6 brightlances, 3 hits, 2,52 wounds, 1.68 dead.

Total: 13 dead...

Mindwar, probably 1 more.

Now, the eldar might get shot at before they launch this barrage, which would effect them, but im not really sure how badly...

Mls are ok, plasmsas are so so..

The bottom line is all the furies will have little effect on the game.

Seems like the plasma marines will kill themselves as fast as they will kill the vypers, with overheats and all.

Mind war and focus fire should elimiate most of the plasma guns very quickly.

Eldar

[TheWamp]

Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar

Well the extra force for the eldar seems poor at best..

However, the termintors wont do much either, except be juicy victory points.

That's what I thought. Both sets of reserves seemed relatively useless. Minor shooting gains for terminators. Possibility of doing a little cc damage for wild riders. They don't do much but add fluff:rolleyes:

Raptors are likely to kill a viper each turn per squad, and are fast enough to keep up with vipers on the move. (also terminators would be a 5th summoning point, a little added flexability)

There aren't any raptors...
And nothing in this list can keep up with the vypers except the furies, and that's only when they roll a 6 on FoF

[LordLink]

however your statistics have failed to mention range. The chaos marines can only reach the bright lance vypers, the missiles will be able to kill a bit admittedly but its only 4 shots, they still have to roll to hit and everything.

Vypers clearly wont shoot at the havocs as odds are they will have a 3+ or 4+ cover saves and it would be wasting shots, unless of course they can get behind the chaos cover. They will of course shoot at termies, or failing that at chaos marines.

Also you can not rely your argument on chaos getting first turn. This is what upset me last match betweem these two that people were basing their votes on chaos winning if they get 1st turn.

A 50/50 chance of winning is not an acceptable reason to choose a winner in votewar.

And darkreever your right about people having fluff interpretations. I think the wildrider chief actually downgrades the fluffiness of these guys as the chief would always be escorted by a lot of jetbikes. Pure vypers was fine. However a night lords army with no marine fast attack is very unfluffy.

[Caluin]

Originally Posted by TheWamp

There aren't any raptors...
And nothing in this list can keep up with the vypers except the furies, and that's only when they roll a 6 on FoF

Pretty sure he meant to put "Furies" in there instead of Raptors. And Furies don't fleet. They have Wings instead.

[TheWamp]

Originally Posted by Caluin

Pretty sure he meant to put "Furies" in there instead of Raptors. And Furies don't fleet. They have Wings instead.

Oh. Now I feel stupid. Stupid Interactive army list not informing me...

But given their 1/6 chance of hitting and then having to actually do some damage... doesn't seem to effective to me.

[JORMAGI]

The terminators will take 22 ap 2 shots to take them down in one turn. There are that many in the eldar list, but they're only going to all die if Night Lords has thus far been inable to do damage for their first 2 turns. I have already shown they are perfectly capable of eliminating 9 of those needed shots as they come in.

The Missile launcher marines will do damage with every hit. str 9 attacks (8+tankhunter) makes for a glancing hit even rolling a 1 for penetration.

2.67 glancing hits a turn: that's killing a viper, and damaging a few more: stun, weapon gone ect every turn. First turn advantage for Night Lords makes that killing 2 easily. Either way a squad the missile launchers fire at isn't going to be doing much next turn, and they outrange the vipers. It would also take 38 of those ap 2 shots to take down the missile launcher squad. Or in other words it would take every viper shooting at them to kill them on first turn. (if Saim- Hann went first. There would not be enough if Night Lords went first)

I want to point out infiltration. the setup could easily so that the plasma guns would cover the locations that the Saim-Hann need to fire from to hit the missile launchers so that if they did pull off the entire army shooting at the missile launcher stunt that the return from Night Lords would be 16 plasma gun shots, and 28 bolt shots, doing 10 glancing hits spread across 4 viper squads. Each glance prevents a future shot, half represent a down viper, and 1/3 of the rest represent a destroyed weapon never to shoot again.

Furies can kill a viper a turn per squad. They do need a 6 to hit true, but they also have plentiful attacks, and a strenght of 5, making any hit they do have pretty likely to do damage. Their charge range is further than a vipers move unless the viper sacrifices their ability to shoot. They can easily finishing off stray squads that have been pinned down by a stunned result. And once they charge a squad it's going to be very hard for them to fly away to safety.

All this is why night Lords still in the game should Eldar go first.
Now consider Night Lords going first:
Lord charges a viper squad: 6 attacks 1 reroll (effectivly 1 more attack), he'll hit once .58 glancing hits, or CC with the farseer if possable. (unlikely though I think)

Marines shooting: 3.55 penetrating hits, .88 glancing hits from plasma, 1.3 more glances from bolters. (perhaps more with closer infilration options) these are spread across a couple squads. Say the starcannons. That's gonna keep them pretty much in place and a target next turn as well.

Havocs: 2.67 hits 2.22 pens, that's pretty much 2 vipers out right dead. . . or very good odds on killing the falcon.

So 3 of the 6 viper squads mostly down, and very likely pinned down for future turns of shooting all on the first turn. That'd be the starcannons out. After that the missile launcher still get's a squad a turn, the plamsa and furies down the remnants of the squads, and terminators can get the falcon no sweat. Clear victory for Night Lords.

[Tulugaq]

Originally Posted by JORMAGI

Now consider Night Lords going first:

You can't base an argument on the "what if" of going first, in my opinion.

Lord charges a viper squad: 6 attacks 1 reroll (effectivly 1 more attack), he'll hit once .58 glancing hits, or CC with the farseer if possable. (unlikely though I think)

You're taking into account the needing a 6 to hit Skimmers, right? Just making sure. This is also to say that the Lord is in range to charge a Vyper squad, which he may very well not be, especially first-turn. Never know these days.

So 3 of the 6 viper squads mostly down, and very likely pinned down for future turns of shooting all on the first turn. That'd be the starcannons out. After that the missile launcher still get's a squad a turn, the plamsa and furies down the remnants of the squads, and terminators can get the falcon no sweat. Clear victory for Night Lords.

You aren't taking into account the Eldar shooting, and you're also assuming all of the Vypers will be in LOS and range to all of the weapons in the Night Lords force - I can't see that happening, no matter how good you are at deployment. Sounds an awful like another battle that I just finished arguing through... :rolleyes:

[ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar]

I dont think youve convinced me that if the eldar go first, the NLs win, why is this.

The eldar can kill 14 marines in the first turn, assuming they have cover saves.

In return the are 10 marines..

+ the havocs...


So that leaves 7 bolters and 3 plasma guns (mindwar)


The bolters .75 glancing hits

The plasma score 1.33 glancing hits-

havocs, score 2.67

Thats 4.75 total, 2.35 dead, basically two squads squads or damage, or one squad is dead.

Thats not nearly enough..

They eldar fire again, missing maybe 4 starcannons, that the eldar fire at all the tactical marines.

Now the furies dont arrive, the wild riders assault the lord, + mindwar on the lord.

This leaves the termintors and havocs to return fire, they kill a squad and half.

The falcon + brightlances head for the termintors, while the skircancannons and CC stuff head for head for the havocs.

[Caluin]

Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis

This is also to say that the Lord is in range to charge a Vyper squad, which he may very well not be, especially first-turn. Never know these days.

Infiltration + Daemonic Speed = First turn charge, no matter what. Assuming of course you pull first turn. That's why people hate Chaos Lords so much.