40K VWMkV - Final Round - Battle #65 - Night Lords versus Siam-Hann Eldar

[Caluin]

Please see this thread on how to participate in these games. I want to stress to everyone that the mission means everything. He who stands the best way to score Victory Points should be the winner. All missions have the Infiltration, Deep Strike, and Victory Points special rules.

Mission Type - Seek and Destroy

***REMATCH ALERT!***
This is a rematch! Both forces have had an extra 300 points worth of forces added to their lists. They are appended at the end of each list. Note that the extra units will enter battle via Reserves.
***REMATCH ALERT!***


Warband of Darkdeath the Fury Master
Night Lords

HQ: 157
Elite: 0
Troops: 624
Fast Attack: 465
Heavy Support: 248


Non-Statured Daemon Prince Darkdeath:
Daemonic Speed; Daemonic Aura; Daemonic Mutation; Infiltrate; Dark Blade; Bolt Pistol; Frag Grenades; Spikey Bits

6x Chaos Space Marines:
3x Bolters; 2x Plasma Guns; Mark of Chaos Undivided; Infiltrate
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

6x Chaos Space Marines:
3x Bolters; 2x Plasma Guns; Mark of Chaos Undivided; Infiltrate
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

6x Chaos Space Marines:
3x Bolters; 2x Plasma Guns; Mark of Chaos Undivided; Infiltrate
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

6x Chaos Space Marines:
3x Bolters; 2x Plasma Guns; Mark of Chaos Undivided; Infiltrate
Aspiring Champion:
Powerfist; Bolt Pistol

8x Furies

8x Furies

8x Furies

7x Furies

8x Chaos Space Marine Havocs:
4x Missile Launchers; 4x bolters; Infiltration; Tank Hunter; Stealth Adept


RELIEF FORCES:

6x Chosen Terminators:
2x Chainfist; Reaper Autocannon; Mark of Chaos Undivided
2x Powerweapon; Combi-melta; Mark of Chaos Undivided
2x Powerweapon; Combi-bolters; Mark of Chaos Undivided


Tactics:
Obviously vary dependant on the situation and the opponent. The basics however are to infiltrate into cover with the troop marines. Use concentrated firepower to take opponents out. Use furies to divide the enemy force, block enemy fire lanes & generally kill things in HtH. Against CC foes the Lord will operate with support from the furies, against shooting foes he's liable to go for the first turn charge and block enemy shooting lanes as best as possible.

The two major factors in this army are the stealthy marines, and the furies.
These marines mean to operate in cover; the stealth adept veteran skill means that they get one better cover save than normal when in cover. This makes them better defended against heavy weapons than their marine brothers. They will do their best to infiltrate 19" away: in cover and in firing positions:
Furies, especially in these numbers are probably the most notable feature of this army. They're a great fit for this army however. First they have a charge range of 18", but summon from a template placed in contact with a model more than 18" away. However the template is 5" diameter and can be placed in front of the summoning unit. Without scatter this gives them a charge range of 23" measured from the summoning unit. (This number can go either direction with scatter.) Should unfavorable scatter happen they have the movement range to easily find cover if they have no targets within 18". (unlikely) All this means that they can summon easily off of the shooty marines and get the job done.
Now for furies and CC: They have above average S and I stats, 3 attacks on the charge (which they rarely don't get), and an invulnerable save. Because they go first, and are inexpensive they can beat some of the scarier CC units on a point for point basis: Berzerkers, Grey Knights ect. However because of the I hit you first nature of their winning they need to match said units point for point and they win quite well, but if they are outnumbered on a point basis they will fail. (16 furies will kill 5.3 MeQ's before they get the chance to strike) Because of this the furies will pair up (or attack with the lord) when going against strong assault units. They will spread out against weak shooty units like guard.



-------------------



Siam-Hann Eldar

HQ 103
Elites: 0
Troops: 0
Fast Attack: 1185
Heavy Support: 210


Farseer:
Mindwar; Singing Spear; Eldar Jetbike w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers;
3x Starcannon and Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers;
3x Starcannon and Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers;
3x Starcannon and Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers;
3x Bright Lance and Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers;
3x Bright Lance and Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

3 Vypers
3x Dual Shuriken Cannons (Not Twin-Linked)

Falcon:
Pulse Laser, Starcannon; Shuriken Cannon; Holo-field; Spirit Stones


RELIEF FORCES -

Wild Rider Chief:
Power Weapon; Eldar Jetbike w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults

5x Wild Riders
Eldar Jetbikes; 4x Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult; 1x Shuriken Cannon

[TheWamp]

Hmm... a look at the relief forces:

The terminators will get one short round of shooting, possibly. Then they'll be starcannoned to death.

On the flip side, the wild rider stuff will hurt (possibly kill) the havocs or a marine squad, and then get ripped to shreds by furies.

Neither is particularly effective.

I vote Siam Hann

Despite infiltration, the skimmers can send forward a brightlance (not too useful) squadron to hold the infiltrators back some, and deploy the rest of the force back and in whatever cover is available. Then, on turn one, they can scamper, and with twice the movement of the marines, those 12" plasma guns will never come into play again.

The missile launchers are nice, but they're not enough. 8 marines will quickly get eaten by the starcannons, even if they find some cover, or the wild riders could charge them, or the farseer could, even. He wouldn't kill them, but with T5, he'd null them until the furies arrived and reached him. He'd probably stop them shooting till turn 4, which is more or less enough.

The thing is, if the Siam Hann make use of their mobility and start using cover, the chaos just don't have the range to use most of their units.

And to top it off, the furies barely have any targets.

Definitely a bloody battle, though.

EDIT: I LOVE the fact that both these battles are rematches... and the wild riders won't really be able to charge quite so effectively, since they're coming in through reserves... and the terminators probably will have less shooting options given that they to are coming in from reserves...

[iamspartacus]

starcannons are ap2?
and ive never heard of wild riders, must be a siam hann special unit.

[Lost Nemesis]

Originally Posted by iamspartacus

starcannons are ap2?
and ive never heard of wild riders, must be a siam hann special unit.

Yes, Starcannons are, and yes, the Wild Riders are a Saim-Hann special unit. :yes:

I think that the Night Lords can bring in a fair amount of decent firepower, but their Infiltration, while being able to give them slightly better fire lanes and the likes, won't be too useful. As TheWamp said, the Havocs will be nice but they are only eight in number, and will easily be shot down by the sheer volume of high strength, low AP shots.

The rest of the Night Lords' firepower is relatively short ranged - yes, Infiltrate will help to counter this fact, but clever usage of terrain will keep the Vypers out of range long enough to do some hurt. Vypers will go down plenty against Plasma fire, but it's not reliable enough in this case.

As TheWamp said, also, those Terminators, when they come in, will only do marginal damage - they aren't nearly as deadly as their Space Marine counterparts, and while they do have that Autocannon in there, it won't be enough to do major damage. After that, they're toast - they will be very easily killed by the AP2 weaponry of the Eldar, and that's a lot of points to be taken out so readily.

Overall, if played right, the Night Lords player will be able to do a fair amount of damage, but the sheer number of vehicles (AV10 or not) and the amount of high strength, low AP weaponry will get the job done for the Eldar, no sweat.

I vote for Saim-Hann.

On a note of fluff - with the inclusion of the Wild Riders and the Chief, the Saim-Hann list becomes much more fluffy (though, not as much as it should be - too few Jetbikes). However, I find that the Night Lords are a little unfluffy themselves, with too many Daemons and standard squads. I don't see any Raptors, etc. in there, which are a Night Lords trademark, in my opinion.

So, I believe that Saim-Hann is the fluffier army.

[darkreever]

Ah but are Night Lords not known for their infiltration and scare tactics as well as their use of raptors? I got nothing as far as a vote for either side, but I do vote Night Lords for the fluff vote...

[Lost Nemesis]

They are, but the 0-1 limit on Raptors is even abolished for the Night Lords. They only have their little Furies and their infiltration - they make use of Raptors and Bikes, the need for speed, and I don't see anything speedy in the list.

It's not just which list is fluffy, dark, but it's which list is more fluffy. Saim-Hann is an all fast moving force, making extensive use of Vypers, Grav-Tanks, and Jetbikes. The Jetbikes leave a little to be desired, but the fact that they are included, along with the exclusive Wild Rider Chief, means that the Saim-Hann is a bit more fluffy. In my opinion, at least.

[darkreever]

My own Saim Hann make use of twenty bikes off the bat, before the wild riders and farseer/warlocks (In which this list only has a grand total of seven jet-bikes.) A fluffy Saim Hann wild rider force rarely makes use of six full squadrons of vypers, thats what the competative ones do. Fluff-wise I've always seen it as about the families fighting under the leading kin family, not their support vehicles doing it.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by darkreever

Fluff-wise I've always seen it as about the families fighting under the leading kin family, not their support vehicles doing it.

but this isn't the clans fighting. This is the windrider host, an army of vypers not vyper support. (damnit darkreever your a fluff master too, now I'm going to have to fight this out with you ).

also when you vote fluff please bold for fluff afterwards as well.

Night Lords beat this list once and I fought against that the whole time. The terminator reserves don't change my beliefs that the vypwers will just gun them down.

In seek and destroy you gain points for each squad left right? imagine this scenario:

the night lords infiltrate forwards so as to plasma gun the vypers. Vypers fly 24" straight past them. Now the night lords can probably turn around and shoot them but the vypers can keep flying next turn. They wont have suffered that many casualties and they can melt the havos and then skim around the board out of range. Not many vypers are going to be down whilst vypers can concentrate firepower to blow night lords squads.

Saim-Hann takes this one for me.
Saim-Hann for fluff too. A night lords list with no fast attack except daemons (which are rare, even furies although they are a little more common) is unfluffy. Saim-Hann has simply used an advantage in the army list, it still follows fluff nicely.

[darkreever]

Originally Posted by LordLink

but this isn't the clans fighting. This is the windrider host, an army of vypers not vyper support. (damnit darkreever your a fluff master too, now I'm going to have to fight this out with you ).

Actually you won't be fighting it out with me, cause each person's view on fluff can be different from someone else's. (Personally I see a fluffy wild rider host as being made up of more than just the wild rider chief and his bodygaurds, maybe having another squad of bikes as well; two being what I use before vypers..)

[JORMAGI]

I'm going to have to go for Night Lords

Night Lords are going to be able to set up attack a few squads with plasma/bolters, and another squad/or the falcon with the 48" range of the missile launchers. They can also set up with the plasma guns between the missile launchers and the saim-hann so that should they saim hann desire to fire on the missile launcher marines, they have to put themselves into rapid fire range of the plasma guns. In order to kill the missile launchers they have to open themselves up to massed plasma damage.

Don't forget that the low AP of weapons is not going to be overly effective against models with improved cover saves.

Raptors are likely to kill a viper each turn per squad, and are fast enough to keep up with vipers on the move. (also terminators would be a 5th summoning point, a little added flexability)

I hear the terminators underestimated. I want to point out that the reaper autocannon is twin linked, and has a higher strenght than the assault cannon. I admit it's not as good, but in this case it's pretty close:
2 reaper autocannons: 3.56 hits 2.37 glances*
2 assault cannons: 5.33 hits 2.67 glances*
*(actually most pens, but they'll most likely be downgraded as the terminators come in deep strike due to the reserve stipulation on the reinforcements)

that's .3 less than the assault cannon, pretty close in my book

I would also like to point out the combi-melta's on the guys that's 2 more strenght 8 hits (single shot) that's:
2 shots, 1.33 hits 1.11 glances
and 4 twin linked bolter shots: 3.56 shots .59 glances

altogether that's 4 glances into moving vipers that's 2 dead and the last cripled, unable to shoot next turn if ever, and iffy on moving.

I think the terminators are going to be pretty effective: taking out one squad on entry, then doing nearly as much damage every turn till they can be taken care of. With deep strike that target is likely to be the squad most likely to be able to do damage back to them.

As said before the last time these armies fought, first turn is going to be a big factor, but I say Night Lords are more likely to win this.