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Fluff wise whats the most evil army in the Warhammer world. I think its either Warriors or Daemons of Chaos. Dark Elves are a close second, Vampire counts are third.
If a Million Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. If one marine dies, that's a tragedy.
Daemons are an echo of mortals hopes, dreams, nightmares and desires. They are all of the above, given physical form, though they can be classified as evil they also hide positive aspects which are usually hidden or degenerated. For me its more of a problem of who's more evil, the whip (daemons) or the hand (daemon's origin) wielding the whip?
I think Dark Elves definitely have the qualification to go for the first place. They aren't evil for the sake of being evil, neither they are evil because High Elves are (sort of) good. Their society is amoral, there is no loyalty, no self-retain in the pursuit of power. Their customs are to be dreaded and feared, they acknowledge power and will worship that power to further aid their goals, no matter what price others must pay. It is perhaps this reason I'd put them on the first place, they willingly do evil, even though they know its evil but simply won't care, or perhaps they don't acknowledge the term and meaning of evil.
Chaos warriors also hide other more noble elements, I see them more of a primitive people that must obey their customs and will of their gods, even though that gods are a reflection of their inner soul. Yes, some of them are completely corrupted by chaos and unleash quite a mayhem, I cannot place them on the same level of malice as Dark Elves. Though it must be pointed that not all barbarian tribes have the same customs, which would mean some are more prone to do the will of their gods.
This above all; to thine own self be true.
Totally agree with Dark Elves-they choose to be evil, daemons and/or skaven compared to them are simply force of nature...
Also-VC are not considered evil-they are just misjudged based on their leader.
Speaking of which-I always considered brets with their "filthy peasant" treatment against other races, pretty evil.
And Empire too...i always tought for utilitaristic society to be evil...
If i'm a priest, i'm not a saint.
Vampire are certainly evil. At their core, they want to run the world by killing everyone and then using necromancy to control them, and just use the survivors as cattle to feed upon.
So, they run in second. The Tomb Kings don't qualify, because they're just protecting their own assets and actually fighting the Vampires.
Skaven? Don't care- not evil. They're terrorists. Woooo... big deal. Compared to the hell unleashed by the rest of the armies, Skaven are some minor players. Ditto for Beasts, just not organized enough.
Orks? Not evil. They just like to crack heads. Anyone's heads.
Brets, High Elves, Empire, Dwarves? Clearly the forces of good.
Wood Elves? Scary, but not evil. They stay in Loren most of the time.
So now, on to the other main contenders: Warriors and Daemons.
For Daemons it's the 'Hand vs. the Whip' argument indeed. The Daemons are basically the idea of Hell. Except that Hell is only the bad emotions. The Daemons are all emotions in excess. So now who's so bad? If they ruled the world, we'd all just be primitives again, living for basic instincts.
Warriors? They're the pawns of chaos. Major threat yes, but not major players. Besides, their new fluff takes the edge off. They're just misguided little vikings now.
So, the only option left for first place: Dark Elves.
Why? Because the Dark Elves are true evil. It's not the will of their gods, or a need for survival. They just kill things because they LIKE it. They don't have a motive, there's no real goal, because they know that they aren't going to be able to take down Ulthuan, so they're like the angry kid that goes and lights up a school. They aren't movers and shakers, but they are just sadistic. Add to that, their plan to take down Ulthuan involves collapsing the defense that holds back the winds of the magic and keeps Chaos at bay.
Dark Elves get my vote.
The captain has hit it dead on. Dark elves all the way because they make a choice to be evil.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
The Human Armies are evil. Look at the Empire the people live in filth, convinced that this life is normal. They are always at risk from the witch hunter, the priests of all major religion and they always must fear the wrath of their lords. Yet they still must remain loyal with no chance of improving their lives. and you say the Dark elves are evil . 1st place to the Empire!
The Dark Elves may not respect their allies, however they must respect their allies as long as their alliances are profitable. If the Dark elf openly kills the leader without making sure that they will have the backing of the other members you can be sure they will be dead by the end of the day. I question how much random killing really happens in the dark elf society as there would be retribution for any action against any group. Remember that the dark elves build their society on a tundra they built their society on raiding the lesser races. 3rd place
The Vampire Counts, now I would put them in second place for evil as they enjoy feeding on the lesser races. This is simply a group that lives to feed and they enjoy playing with their food. Is that joyous torture not evil?
Chaos, simply the mirror of human emotions they only exist as long as humans have their petty emotions right? Can you call them evil if they are only exist due to other emotions?
Dwarves: greedy little things that only want money, and they like to fight. They have vices not evil.
Orcs drug addicts, you cannot blame an animal for its instincts.
Skaven: again instincts not evil
High elves: see all other races as lesser and I would even say xenophobic but I cannot add evil to the list, just crazy.
Wood elves: see high elves add defenders of the forrest.
Is there really an evil race in a world that must constantly fight simply to survive? Where does the propaganda end in GW writings? If there is an evil look into the races that leech off of their own people, not those that attack others.
NEW DARK ELDAR! Hold all armies I have a new purpose in life!
I would say the only "good" race is tomb kings. They dont really go out and raid others or bend them to their will. They just want to sleep, they didint choose to be undead it just happened. If you dont bother a Tomb King, they wont bother you imo.
Then again, good and evil is always just a matter of perspective
Sure dark Elves have a society based on power and murder, but isint that what the empire has as well? In the Vampire counts trilogy, in the second book different elector counts allied against the vampire threat only to squabble amoungst themselves and send assassins into eachother's camps (who where successful)
"Thank him who puts me loath to this revenge on you who wrong me not for him who wrongd"
I would have to say that Dark Elfs could be considered the most "evil" race, but even in that regard I think applying an alignment of strictly good vs. evil for any of the Warhammer Races would be a stretch. One of the things I've always enjoyed about the Warhammer Universe is how many of the races lie somewhere within the "grey" area.
Chaos -They do what they do for their gods, right and wrong is more determined by gaining favor with their chosen deity.
Brettonians - Chivalrous though they may be, they definitely don't believe in freedom. Plus they are treating their peasantry as almost sub-human.
Empire - Men may be more free than in Brettonia, but they're Men and as such can be prone to acts of either good or evil. Whats to say a witch hunter won't burn someone just because they denounced the state religion?
Wood Elves - Very Territorial, they'd soon as kill you the moment you step foot in their domain, probably wouldn't matter if you were a saint. I can't say they're good or evil, they can definitely be malevolent sometimes.
High Elves - Tend to think of them as "good" since they help out the empire and some of the other "good" races from time to time, but really they're motives tend to fall back on, "How will this eventually effect me?" Altruistic? Nah far from that, not to mention some of the things that the elves did during the war of the beard could be construed as evil actions.
Dark Elves - Power Hungry, authority is dictated by power and those willing to use it. Very Carl Schmitt in my opinion, they do things more as a means to an end and not because of a moral prerogative. Mind you their society does condone if not encourage Ethnocentrism and cruelty as a show of power.
Dwarfs - Good? Hardly, though they value honour highly and through such will honor alliances and such. They however have many bad tendencies that mirror a humans capability for evil. Greedy and Grudge bearing they are willing to let the sins of the father be carried over to the son, theres nothing to stop a Dwarf army from butchering unarmed elves if they believed that their relatives had done something deserving of it in the past. They're not altruistic either, unless they have a very specific alliance binding them to someone they're more likely to stay out of a fight unless the outcome directly involves them.
Chaos Dwarfs - Slave Drivers, and completely concerned with commerce. Reminds me a little bit of 18th century industry, I think you could say a majority of their traits would be considered Evil by humans, but their own society condones it, so I doubt they see if as such.
Ogres - They're bigger than us, and see us as food, can't exactly blame us if they don't treat humans as equals. Good or Evil? I couldn't say, I don't think even they really think along those lines.
Orcs and Goblins - They live to fight, doesnt matter against who, thats all they do. Can't really say good or evil, even if they commit evil it isnt for evils sake.
Lizardmen - They believe they're in the right, regardless. Good or Evil? They probably swing both ways from our point of view.
Vampire Counts - Most would think Evil, but I believe it's somewhere in the middle. Power Hungry? Yes ofcoarse. Do they feed on humans? Ofcoarse, we're prey to them. Do they play with use before eating? Sure, but don't children do the same with animals on a farm before the slaughter? It simply human actions just one step higher on the food chain. Though there are cases of "good" vampires to a small degree, think of the first of the Blood Dragons after finally being able to beat his blood thirst, or perhaps Ushoran and the original Strigoi line before their kingdom was destroyed by orcs and the other vampires betrayed them for "arrogance" (which was more along the lines of refusing to prey on just anyone, just convicted criminals and such.)
Tomb Kings - Humans but undead. Power Hungry Kings, I think they have the capability for either good or evil. Settra's now expanding his lands so I can't exactly say hes all that nice at the moment.
All in all I think each of the races falls into more of a grey area with some more prone to Evil deeds than others, but if I had to pick one overall for the most "evil" I'd definitely go with Dark Elfs.
Last edited by InquisitorMarcus; August 1st, 2009 at 11:11.
Sigh, one of these threads come up once every two months.
First of all, to all of you who say the Empire takes top spots I say to you. Although morality is relative, hence why this can even be a discussion, I think it is safe to say that SOME people can live within their society which already trumps half the armies.
Here's a very, very basic version of whatothers had said.
Chaos - Madness/Change/Destruction
Dark Elves - Pain/Suffering/Betrayal/Slavery
Vampire Counts - All Dead/Feed on People
Orcs - War Incaranate
Ogres - Bullies/Gluttony
Brettonia - Caste System
Tomb Kings - Totalitarian Incarnate
Lizardmen - Religious Fanatics
Empire, Dwarfs, High Elves, Wood Elves - Each has inherant flaws, but I'd like to hear a good case why any of these four would be put at the top. If someone can do this without coming across as making stuff up, or totally disregarding other armies I'd love to hear it.
@Stavrogin: No, I'd say Vampire are not misunderstood. They eat people (out of necessity, though I wonder if they wouldn't gorge themselves if there weren't witch hunters around). They are power-hungry snobs or crazed beasts that have plagued the world for millennia and seek to make everything either dead or mere cattle to be fed on. Misunderstood... Warhammer is not Twilight or Angel.
@sendaf: Where do you get the idea that Tomb Kings are faultless compared to the rest? They were self-rigteous tyrants that take after the Pharoahs, which in modern morality was pretty darn cruel. At least in Dwarf society or in the Empire a guy can sit down and get a pint, even if you're not royalty.
@Captan and SirKently: Although you do have a point with Dark Elves choosing to be evil, you should consider the counter-point in how long a "not evil" Dark Elf would last in their society?
It really comes down to what each individual person feels is worse. Some people with an issue with killing may see Vampires as the worst, others who have issues with people taking religion too far could hate the Lizardmen, and if madness is the ultimate evil, then Chaos it is. Like I said though, I don't see Empire, Dwarfs, High Elves, or wood Elves as contenders whatsoever because depite their flaws, there are other armies that exhibit those same sins in a bigger way.
Last edited by daelrog; August 1st, 2009 at 21:24.
I am heading off to the Peace Corps. It is bery likely I will not be back. Good luck to all of you endeavors.
Dark. Elves. Like. To. Kill. Things.
Dark. Elves. Like. To Cause. Agonal. Pain.
The. More. Pain. They. Can. Inflict. Upon. Anyone. Else. The. Better. They. Feel.
It's not even evil that far, it's twisted.